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  • Sun, Apr 17 2011 6:34 AM

    File based video recorders - opinions?

    So there's some (new) recorders out there that will let us capture digital video to (QT) files. They are mostly targeted towards on-set use, but they can be nice recorders to accompany an NLE, IMHO. (Personally, I'd like use such a device to play out my cutting copies to, so I can take them into screening rooms without having to burn BD's).

    Anyone care to comment on the differences?

     

    AJA Ki Pro. Most flexible I/O (HDSDI, HDMI, Analog A and V), does cross-conversion, accepts PsF signals, both 23.98 and 24. Larger drives, so longer recording times. 3995 USD

    AJA Ki Pro Mini. HDSDI and HDMI, no cross-conversion, not sure about PsF, limited recording times. 2000 USD

    Convergent Design Nanoflash. HDSDI and HDMI, no cross-conversion, accepts PsF (23 & 24), recording times? Will write MXF files! 2995 USD

    Sound Devices PIX 220. HDMI I/O only, mic inputs, does cross-conversion, not sure if it handles PsF (?!), recording times?, writes DNxHD (option) QT files. 1595 USD

    Sound Devices PIX 240. HDSDI and HDMI I/O, mic inputs, does cross-conversion, not sure if it handles PsF (?!), recording times?, writes DNxHD (option) QT files. 2595 USD

    Atomos Ninja. HDMI only, not sure if it handles 23/24PsF, long recording times. 995 USD

    Atomos Samurai. HDSDI only, not sure if it handles 23/24PsF, long recording times. 1495 USD

    Blackmagic Design Hyperdeck Shuttle, HDSDI and HDMI, handles 23/24PsF, long recording times. 345 USD

    Blackmagic Design Hyperdeck Studio, HDSDI and HDMI, handles 23/24PsF, long recording times. 995 USD

    Datavideo HDR 50/100/200. Not sure if it handles 23/24 PsF, long recording times.

    Then there's Cinemartin and Cinedeck and Convergent Design's Gemini.

     

    A lot to consider...

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Apr 17 2011 10:03 AM In reply to

    Re: File based video recorders - opinions?

    We brought in a Convergent Design Nanoflash for testing.  It worked as advertised.  It forces 1GB headroom on the CF cards, so best to use large ones.  Menus got stuck occasionally after recording, and the unit had to be power-cycled to get back.

    We have an AJA Ki Pro Mini in house now for testing, and should have results by the end of the week.

    For all, pay for faster & bigger cards.  64GB's and Class 10 or 90Mb/s.

    The fastest card reader we found (for CF cards) is the Sonnet Qio.  It is literally twice as fast as a USB card reader.  It connects to the computer via a PCI-e card or an Express 34 card.  If you're serious about getting cards unloaded on set, this is the way to go.  Note that the currently included adapter for SD cards is slower (USB speed).  Sonnet just announced a new adapter that is PCI-e speed.

    Symphony 8.8.x w/Avid Nitris DX, HP z420, Windows 10, QT v7.7.x, Hexa Core 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM, nVidia Quadro Series 2000 w/353.82. 2TB Boot, 2 x 3TB internal... [view my complete system specs]

    "There are few technological barriers.  You can fix almost anything if you throw enough money at it."
    *******************************
    Randall L. Rike, ACI, ACSR Mac*Win*Unity*ISIS*DS
    Systems Engineer @ BET Networks [a Viacom company]
    (wwld)

  • Mon, Apr 18 2011 8:41 PM In reply to

    • vpcmike
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    Re: File based video recorders - opinions?

    Have used the NanoFlash and the KI Pro's.  Not a big fan of the NanoFlash - we had a few issues with it although it ultimately performed as advertised.  You do need a special adapter to get time code into it.

    Big fan of the KI Pros, although you need a Mac or a PC with MacDrive to read the files.  Proprietary, rugged hard drives hold the data and are accessable via SATA (although the connectors are not in a place that you could plug this into an external holder) and FW 800.  Writes natively to Pro Res and not DNXHD (but then again, what does write to DNXHD?).  Very reliable and easy to use.

    System #1 - Mac Pro 12 Core 2.93, 24 GB RAM, 16 TB ISIS 5000 System #2 - Core i7 2600k, Windows 7, 16 GB RAM, Quadro 4000 System #3 - Dell Precision... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Apr 18 2011 8:56 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: File based video recorders - opinions?

    In Nano flash and MC v5 ish on a Mac the I frame 100Mbit footage would not play back.  I had a small dialog with Convergent and they have since dropped the ball.

    http://community.avid.com/forums/t/91202.aspx

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." mostly 8.12.9|OS 10.14.x - iMac Pro 2019 - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown"... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Mon, Apr 18 2011 9:55 PM In reply to

    Re: File based video recorders - opinions?

    We just completed testing on the AJA Ki Pro Mini.  Works very well, and as advertised.  Love the abillity to connect via a web-based GUI.  Pro:  Records to a single file (as compared to multiple 3.99GB files on the nanoFlash).  Con:  Leaves 10% headroom (as compared to a fixed 1GB on the nanoFlash).  Over all, very nice.

    Symphony 8.8.x w/Avid Nitris DX, HP z420, Windows 10, QT v7.7.x, Hexa Core 3.2GHz, 16GB RAM, nVidia Quadro Series 2000 w/353.82. 2TB Boot, 2 x 3TB internal... [view my complete system specs]

    "There are few technological barriers.  You can fix almost anything if you throw enough money at it."
    *******************************
    Randall L. Rike, ACI, ACSR Mac*Win*Unity*ISIS*DS
    Systems Engineer @ BET Networks [a Viacom company]
    (wwld)

  • Mon, Apr 18 2011 10:01 PM In reply to

    Re: File based video recorders - opinions?

    vpcmike:
    not DNXHD (but then again, what does write to DNXHD?)

    Sound Devices do (option).

    Thanks on sharing your experience though.

    Doesn't the Ki Pro disk basically consist of a rugged caddy that one should be able to break open and then replace the drive inside it?

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Apr 20 2011 12:10 PM In reply to

    • NICKB
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    Re: File based video recorders - opinions?

    Job ter Burg:
    they can be nice recorders to accompany an NLE, IMHO. (Personally, I'd like use such a device to play out my cutting copies to, so I can take them into screening rooms without having to burn BD's).

     

    Job My thoughts

    To just do what you want the Blackmagic Hyperdeck is all you need, as the main problem with it is that it eats up disk space however since you are not shooting hours of rushes just complete films you should be able to cope with that issue, and its very cheap, we shall certainly be buying one.

    For camera use it might be better to go with sound devices as they will alow an upgrade to Avid DnX codec and you could rent that out as part of your editing service to the production to shoot Avid ready files.

  • Wed, Apr 20 2011 12:28 PM In reply to

    Re: File based video recorders - opinions?

    NICKB:
    To just do what you want the Blackmagic Hyperdeck is all you need

    Except it lacks audio inputs, and my sound is coming from my mixer, not embedded (it routes through mixer and outboard gear).

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Apr 20 2011 1:02 PM In reply to

    • NICKB
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    Re: File based video recorders - opinions?

    Oh i didn't realise that, you could add a blackmagic convertor , 'audio to sdi ' which will embed analog audio into the SDI video stream

  • Wed, Apr 20 2011 1:06 PM In reply to

    Re: File based video recorders - opinions?

    I'm leaning to the AJA Ki Pro.

    I'll need to take it to places (theatres and screening rooms) where I may find different connection types (analog, digital, SDI, HDMI), so that is likely to give me the most flexibility.

    The alternative could be a MacBook Pro with an I/O device.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Apr 20 2011 2:51 PM In reply to

    • VGUK2
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    Re: File based video recorders - opinions?

    http://www.atomos.com/

    I thought the Ninja looked very nice for those with HDMI outs on their cameras, the Samurai has HDSDI ports.

    To be able to record to cheap HDDs and for more rugged environment SSDs looked really attractive for long capture times (10 bit ProRes).  A Sony FS100 + Ninja would be quite an awesome proposition.  I can dream....

  • Wed, Apr 20 2011 3:30 PM In reply to

    • Mark Job
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    Re: File based video recorders - opinions?

    Job ter Burg:
    Anyone care to comment on the differences?
    Hi Job: I own the first model of solid state digital recorder brought to market by Convergent Design. It is the larger 4 CF Card Media Slotted Flash XDR. I find the audio and video quality to be outstanding with the XDR. The XDR uses the exact same technology as the smaller, less expensive Nano Flash. The only downside with the Nano or the XDR is you are limited to 8 bit MPEG - 2 type technology. Happily, these units use a proprietary encoding playback hardware engine by Sony to encode XDcam HD 4:2:2 with an option to record in either I- Frame or Long Gop.

    There are several considerations to consider for posting on MC if you are using the Nano Flash, or older Flash XDR.

    The Nano & XDR only output TC embedded in the HD-SDI output stream ! Foolishly, neither the Avid Adrenaline, nor the Avid Nitris DX box are capable of decoding the TC info in the HD-SDI stream ! This is mentally retarded ! AS far as my research goes, most of the SSDR's out there deal with TC output the same way (Embedding it in the HDMI or HD-SDI stream along with up to 16 channels of audio depending on the recorder). With the possible exception of the Sound Devices PIX 240 (??) no de-embedder device is extant which can strip off the source TC signal and rout it out to an audio 3 pin Canon ballanced LTC output so you can actually get it into an Adrenaline or Nitris DX box.

    If you record in Long GOP, then you cannot exceed 50 Mbps recording data rate, or MC will not be able to handle the files. If you record in I-Frame )Intra) mode, then you can record up to a maximum data rate of 280 Mbps and MC will handle the file ok.

    Flash XDR users were left at the side of the road by Convergent Design ! The units were sold @ $5,995.00 US and we were told a future *Uncompressed* option would be availabler via a paid upgrade. Such an option was never realized by CD ! Also the on board FireWire I/O and RS-422 interface have never been enabled, yet we were promised they would be via a future firmware update ! Never happened !

    The XDR in particular has several cool features, including the ability to adjust playback output to PsF from a P source recorded file, and the ability to change the output of a PsF recorded file to P only during playback via the HD-SDI output. As you know, the Adrenaline looks for a Positive Segmented Frame signal via it's HD-SDI input on the DNxCel HD board.

    The XDR also can remove 3:2 pull down on the fly from a Canon 24 F source. It also has very high quality Analogue ballanced audio inputs and outputs, which are switchable between embedded HD-SDI audio or Analogue audio input. The Unit also has 48 Volt Phantom along with MIC/Line switchable input levels.

    At this point, I think the Sound Devices PIX 240 & the Cinedeck are the best, and most flexible choices avialable right now.

    Mark J.

    Now Newer Avid Certified MacBook Pro version 8.3 early 2011 with Core i7 (2720 QM) Quad 2.2 GHz CPU with a 6 MB Shared L3 Cache , 16 GB of DDR 3 - 1333... [view my complete system specs]

    The thing is don't peak too early in life. 

  • Thu, Apr 21 2011 12:58 PM In reply to

    • Dan Keaton
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    Re: File based video recorders - opinions?

    Dear Friends,

    I am informed by Avid that the latest versions of Media Composer work well with all of our Long-GOP and I-Frame Only modes.

    We never delivered Full Uncompressed feature for our Flash XDR. The Flash XDR was priced at $4,995 and we promised a $995 upgrade (both US Prices) for the Full Uncompressed feature.

    Our of all of the Flash XDR's that we sold, there were only two users who expessed an interest in the full uncompressed option, and only one who was willing to purchase the option.

    Thus it was a business decision to not spend the months of development time to add this feature.

    When the Flash XDR was brought to market, the maximum bit-rate was 100 Mbps. Then we added many more bit rates, all of the way up to 280 Mbps. While 280 Mbps is not uncompressed it is very close in visual quality.

    While we had a Firewire Connection on the Flash XDR this was never promised in any of our literature or brochures.

    On the other side, we never enabled the RS-422 port on the Flash XDR.

    Dan Keaton
    Director of Sales and Marketing
    Convergent Design

  • Thu, Apr 21 2011 5:42 PM In reply to

    Re: File based video recorders - opinions?

    Just wanted to point out that I'm personally more interested in having a filebased videorecorder for playouts from my Avid rather than the on-set camera-attached gear that gets most of the spotlight.

    That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the various reported experiences, of course.

    However, I'd love to know if anyone uses it in lieu of the traditional beta/digi/dvcam recorder for screening cutting copies and such.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Apr 22 2011 11:25 AM In reply to

    • TrevorA
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    Re: File based video recorders - opinions?

    The other use that is of interest is as general ingest devices... for grabbing material from SD/HD-SDI sources such as VTRs or Live sources. 

    I could lend one to customers (who already have VTRs or are in OB trucks) and have them capture material for editing later... the issue, as ever, is that will it be future-proof.

    Uncompressed is not so useful as it'll really eat up storage and need to be transcoded for the short term at least.

    ProRes and/or DNxHD are probably the best current HD codecs to go to for me. So the Sound Devices is looking the most interesting as it can do both. 

     

    iMac 5K on High Sierra MC 2020.5, HP z420 MC 2020.4 [view my complete system specs]
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