I posted someting like this in a tips and tutorials thread, but I figured it's more appropriate here. Why suddenly change some control-key functions in MC5?

I've been control-key lassoing in the timeline (Mac) for well over a decade now. (And control-key restricting-to-vertical moves in segment mode, etc.) I'd wager that the vast majority of working editors couldn't care less if the control-key is now more consistent with OSX. Actually the first thing I do when I go on a job is essentially dismantle most of what OSX has to offer on the keyboard so that my Avid works like it always has.

I'm a faster and more fluid editor when I can engage with my story rather than thinking about my evolving toolset. MC is such a deep program, I can't understand why the engineers can't offer the editors a setting choice for control-key lasso OR option-lasso; control-key vertical moves OR shift-command-key vertical moves. Is that not possible?

Thanks.

funckdren:

Why suddenly change some control-key functions in MC5?

I've been control-key lassoing in the timeline (Mac) for well over a decade now. (And control-key restricting-to-vertical moves in segment mode, etc.)

This is my beef as well with any major changes to how my "trained" hands work.

funckdren:

I'd wager that the vast majority of working editors couldn't care less if the control-key is now more consistent with OSX.

The problem lies not with us (the veteran users), in the ever-present effort of making the app appeal to the lowest common denominator, they are changing core functions that will certainly slow us down as we are forced to re-train our hand-eye coordination. 

I attribute it to being like if you suddenly changed someone's steering wheel to turn left when they turn the wheel right. 

And if people think it's no big deal, try switching from Mac to PC in the same day.  I find myself accidentally hold the PC's ALT key (next to the Spacebar) because that's where CMD is on the Mac.  Even though I am fully and mentally aware of the two's differences I still make that mistake out of sheer habit of hand movements. 

So now, I feel like changing the way lassoing was done via the Control key is going to cause me and a lot of other veteran users a lot of grief.

So it seems to me that this issue is Mac specific - moving shortcuts between CMD and CTRL. Is anyone in PC land seeing anything similar? Any long time keyboard shortcuts that no longer work the same way? If so, please post your results in this thread.

funckdren:

I've been control-key lassoing in the timeline (Mac) for well over a decade now. (And control-key restricting-to-vertical moves in segment mode, etc.)

I was just about to start a thread about this too, cause I've been on MC5 for a week and I'm convinced the move to the option-key for lassoing is a mistake. Some reasons:

1. the flexibility of being able to directly lasso a slip (control-lasso right to left) or slide (option-control lasso right to left) from source/record mode is now gone, since the possiblity of combining control and option is gone.

2. lassoing clips or transitions when you are in effect mode is also now broken, since the option-key does not prevent the cursor from functioning as a segment-style selector in that case. When it was control this worked, for adding or removing mutliple transitions/effects at once.

3. The restrict to vertical movment has a new key combo, which works; but on Mac for some reason it always causes the system to give an error beep when you use it.

I sincerely and humbly beseech the engineers to restore the control-key as the lasso key or to install a setting which allows us to toggle it.

That being said I applaud the conformity to normal shift- and command-key behaviour for selecting items in bins. This makes much more sense.

This actually makes the function more simetrical with PC Avids.  Usually the translation is Alt=Option and Ctrl=Cmd.  To keep segments from shifting left or right on a PC it's shift & Ctrl, IIRC, so the single key stroke of ctrl took me a while to get use to on macs.  Ctrl lassoning is Option lassoing on a PC, IIRC so the new keystroke is OPtion lasso on a Mac.  I spent most of my time on Symphonies on PC but of late have been on a lot of macs.  Bouncing between the two platforms always takes me a while to get back into the swing of things.  Heck I remember the Sony linear editors that reversed the stop and play buttons from the norm of the day.  Their response was, "The keyboard is mappable."  Well I always like that Smith Corona keeps the "E" key in the same spot but what do I know.

John Moore:

This actually makes the function more simetrical with PC Avids.

Yes that may be the case but the problem is it breaks the way things worked on a Mac.

CTRL was a good key for lassoing because it suspends all other types of clicks -- meaning it was a perfect way to have a reserved function like lassoing.

I've been loathe to upgrade, so lunelson, just confirming: You can no longer get into slip/slide mode holding Control / Control-Option and lassoing? Is there no new key-combo to replace it?

If not, that's a serious mistake IMHO. I was an Avid Certified Instructor for years in LA and vividly remember my students' eyes lighting up when I demonstrated how easy it was to get into these various modes with right-to-left Control-lasso & Control-Option lasso.

John Moore, with respect, I understand your point, but I would say accomodating the small number of editors who bounce from PC to Mac and vice versa pales next to the large number of Mac editors who have had the rug pulled out on them with these fundamental keystroke changes 15 years later.

funckdren:

...I would say accomodating the small number of editors who bounce from PC to Mac and vice versa pales next to the large number of Mac editors who have had the rug pulled out on them with these fundamental keystroke changes 15 years later.

I completely agree and am personally distressed with this and other changes being made, especially as it pertains to customizing the interface layout. The argument Avid is making is they're focused on "a bigger picture" of where they want to take the UI in the future. But of course, they can't speak to any details regarding that future. So we are just supposed to suck it up and deal with what most of us see to be completely arbitrary changes that make no sense to us. IMHO this whole thing harks back to killing the weightlifter. That too, was defended as necessary because of a "bigger picture" in mind. And what resulted from that? Nothing, except a bad taste in loyal users' mouths. I'm sorry, but until Avid is willing to provide a more believable and realistic justification for these latest changes to the fundemental workflow that we've all grown accustomed to, I'm simply NOT BUYING IT.

Sorry for ranting like this, but even as a moderator, this really pisses me off.

Amen, Larry. But at least killing the weightlifter didn't really change the function of the Lift command. (I wonder if that's next.)

I suppose it's fitting that you are, in part, a spirited moderator for Meridien Products. For a number of years I edited at Pilgrim Films and TV in Los Angeles, and, as I've pointed out once or twice on these boards, they churned out hundreds of hours of programming with 50+ Avid bays, all decked out with Media Composer 11 running on G4s with Mac OS 9. (This is recent history, years after OSX came out and MC became software-based.) It was a stable solution in an elegant offline workflow. Nothing was broken so there was essentially no need to upgrade. I'm actually still thinking about doing something similar and sticking with MC 4 over here...

Larry Rubin:

Nothing, except a bad taste in loyal users' mouths. I'm sorry, but until Avid is willing to provide a more believable and realistic justification for these latest changes to the fundemental workflow that we've all grown accustomed to,

Having just had to flip back and forth for most of the day between MC 4 on a laptop Mac, PC MCA 4 and MC 5 I feel like I have had my face rubbed in undiluted effluent for 10 hours by this completely needless barstardisation of a perfectly good keyboard orientated UI.  And for what??? To satisify some whim of a few mouse orientatated newbbies???

I had thought that with the "NEW THINKING" Avid would have been smart enough to ADD new features to long established and proven workflows. NOT add a feature that increases your mouse work and in many cases remove your keyboard option or doubles your keystrokes to achieve your existing workflow.  IMO (and workflow) these changes are UNBELIEVABLY STUPID.

For example select overwrite segment mode from the KB use it (smart man here has UNSMART tool turned off), now I need insert segment mode so I select it on the KB right? OOPs now both are selected at the same time and I need to hover about my (convienently height minimised track) to get the tool I  just selected (if Iam lucky) 

Of course I could remember to adopt a completely new workflow and turn off overwrite from the KB before entering insert mode but I have not needed that number of keyboard strokes in 15 years. Now time to quit segment mode so  touch the TC track? OH NO that does not work like it has for 15 years. What a cluster ......

Is this a cunning plan to make sure every facility that has more than one Avid has to upgrade them at the same time? Imagine having 10 Avids with a room full of assistant editors who may use a different workstation every shift . Sometimes MC1 or  2 or 3 or 4 and now horror of horrors oh no MC5 with very little that works as expected

Larry Rubin:

Sorry for ranting like this

I am not I think Avid needs to hear EXACTLY what a lot of different users  think about how they have spoilt (or not) an otherwise (IMO) best upgrade in a long time.

funckdren:

just confirming: You can no longer get into slip/slide mode holding Control / Control-Option and lassoing? Is there no new key-combo to replace

Pretty much. OPTION is the new lasso key; but as I've mentioned, it now means that the possiblity of *combining* control with option is gone. So yes you can lasso a trim, but as for slip/slide you can now only lasso *slide* trims out of source/record mode, because you are using the option key to lasso, and lassoing right to left and MC interprets the option key as both the lasso key *and* the modifer key at the same time so you get a slide trim out of it. 

The only straightforward way to get a slip trim now is to enter trim mode first via the trim buttton/key and lasso (without any modifier key, as you are already in trim mode), from left to right. However:

... there are additional problems with even that sequence of commands, because of the "smart tool". You have to *deactivate* the smart tool before you enter trim mode, or you will not be able to lasso transitions in trim mode at all, since all your key clicks will be interpreted as segment-mode-style selections. If you deactivate the smart tool when you are already in trim mode it also throws you out of trim mode. So effectively you now have to add two additional keystrokes *every time* you want to lasso a slip trim.

Frankly the more I work with it the more I feel like the smart tool was designed by people who didn't even fully appreciate how the existing toolset worked. There are really several types of situations now where the two things are at odds.

Silence so far from the UI design people, heh?

I wholeheartedly agree with what all of you have said. I have been a vocal complainer about what I see as kludginess of the MC UI. But I never thought they would change how it functions, just add more functionality and improve some very old/odd things, like windows not docking, scopes not being realtime, frames not automatically resizing in Frame view, etc.

Removing functionality makes no sense to me. And not testing the new UI w/ professional power users like Larry and Kenton seems like a very bad decision.

BobbyMurcerFan:

not testing the new UI w/ professional power users like Larry and Kenton seems like a very bad decision.

Avid used to employ "real world professionals" as Contractors in the SQA department to test this very sort of thing.  Needless to say, they have opted not to use these people with invaluable experience for at least a year now and rely more on automated testing.  

I fear that with changes like this (if more of these "enhancements" are to come in future releases) v5 may very well be the beginning of the end of Media Composer as we know it.

 

 

Kenton.VanNatten:

I fear that with changes like this (if more of these "enhancements" are to come in future releases) v5 may very well be the beginning of the end of Media Composer as we know it.

While I fully understand Avid's desire to take this application in a new direction for future development, I believe that making arbitrary fundemental changes in a long established workflow that everyone is familiar with IS A VERY BAD MISTAKE.

Design engineers, catalog your changes, revisions and refinements and use them IN DEVELOPING AN ENTIRELY NEW INTERFACE FROM THE GROUND UP. Then, you can roll out a brand new Media Composer that everyone can re-learn at one time. For the current version, concentrate on the weaknesses that users have continually reported for years which hamper our workflow, like no real time updating on waveform scope displays in color correction, playback stopping everytime you choose another function, the inability to match back to precomputes, to say nothing of the inability to move a marked region of audio keyframes horizontally. These are long standing and well known complaints that should be your priorities now, because they will significantly speed up our workflow. Those are the enhancements we need. That's where your focus needs to be. Workflow, workflow, workflow. Just stop throwing monkey wrenches into the machine and screwing around with what we have now, PLEASE!!!

 

Larry Rubin:

Kenton.VanNatten:

I fear that with changes like this (if more of these "enhancements" are to come in future releases) v5 may very well be the beginning of the end of Media Composer as we know it.

Nasty, nasty, nasty. That is giving us serious headache... Is AVID willing to hear any of it?