Latest post Tue, Oct 21 2008 2:00 AM by Brickwad. 22 replies.
Page 1 of 2 (23 items) 1 2 Next >
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  • Thu, Jun 12 2008 11:08 AM

    • Glacier
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Sun, Oct 7 2007
    • UK
    • Posts 22
    • Points 345

    Pan and Scan HD in SD

    I'm working with 1080i for the first time but the output will be SD, so presumably I can pan and scan using my HD footage with no loss to the SD output.

    Any tips on the best way to go about it?

     

    MTIA

    MC6 on an HP XW8600, Nvidia Quadro 4000, 8GB RAM, Win7 [view my complete system specs]
    Filed under: , ,
  • Thu, Jun 12 2008 12:03 PM In reply to

    • luca.mg
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Roma - Italy
    • Posts 5,921
    • Points 70,115

    Re: Pan and Scan HD in SD

    I'm sorry to disappoint You: Avid is not resolution indipendent (and that's a major lack); You can capture Your footage in a 1080 project and You'll be stuck at that resolution, only if outputting to SD via Adrenaline with the HD board there's a menu in the digital cut tool with a few options like letterbox or pan and scan; other than that You can capture in an SD project with the VCR doing the downconversion and perhaps You may have options on the VCR side for P&S. In short: there is no way You can capture HD and bring it in an SD project at full res to play with its framing, this can be done in FinalCut and, to be honest, it is a feature that many of us miss and have been asking for; as we're in the new thinking era let's see if someone will finally listen.

    Symphony 21.9, BM Intensity Pro 4k, Windows 10, i7-5930K, 32 GB ram, Quadro K620 [view my complete system specs]

    peace luca

  • Thu, Jun 12 2008 12:34 PM In reply to

    • Glacier
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Sun, Oct 7 2007
    • UK
    • Posts 22
    • Points 345

    Re: Pan and Scan HD in SD

     Thanks.

    That's a shame.

    I'll have to look into maybe a AE workaround.

    MC6 on an HP XW8600, Nvidia Quadro 4000, 8GB RAM, Win7 [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Jun 12 2008 12:54 PM In reply to

    • jwrl
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Melbourne, Australia
    • Posts 8,433
    • Points 98,200

    Re: Pan and Scan HD in SD

    AE will certainly do it, but it does seem an oversight on Avid's part not to support this.

    MC 7.0.4 - Asus P6T Deluxe V2 mobo - Intel i7 920 2.66GHz - Windows 7 Ult64 SP1 - nVidia Quadro FX 1800 - 16 Gbyte low latency DDR3 RAM - Internal 8 Tb... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Jun 14 2008 3:11 AM In reply to

    • Blofelds Cat
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Australia
    • Posts 31
    • Points 445

    Re: Pan and Scan HD in SD

    Glacier:

    I'm working with 1080i for the first time but the output will be SD, so presumably I can pan and scan using my HD footage with no loss to the SD output.

    Any tips on the best way to go about it?

     

    MTIA

     

    I've recently been researching this very same issue. As has already been pointed-out, trackable panning and scanning of the full HD raster within an SD project cannot be achieved natively in Avid.

    Grass Valley Edius Pro 4 goes halfway toward a solution, via its Layout tool, by allowing access to the full HD raster within an SD project. But reframing is limited to a single frame size for the entire shot - in other words, you cannot pan and/or zoom due to the lack of keyframe control.

    An NLE which does allow full, keyframeable, motion tracking of the full HD raster - both in 2D and 3D effect mode - is Sony Vegas; the biggest surprise being that this extremely useful tool is also available in its 'cut-price' consumer counterpart, Sony Movie Studio Platinum.

    Avid should be mightily embarrassed by Sony's initiative in the area of HD for SD presentation - especially as the ability to make use of the larger canvas of HD resolutions within an SD editing environment affords significant creative control over framing, without compromising PQ, that was hitherto unavailable to an Editor in post. This lack of vision on the part of Avid clearly illustrative of Avid's inability to see the forest for the tree's (or, more appropriately, the tree's for the forest).

    cheers,

    Drummond Grieve (aka Blofelds Cat)

     

     

    Proudly non-Avid qualified - Avid Media Composer 3 - HP Pavilion m7288a - Intel Pentium 4 CPU 3.2GHz - 4GB DDR Ram - Gigabyte GeForce 9600GT... [view my complete system specs]

    www.ohmss-007.com

    home of:

    Far Up! Far Out! Far More! - James Bond, On Her Majesty's Secret Service

    The Bondles - take a trip down Moneypenny Lane to a world in which The Beatles and James Bond collide with moderately humorous result.

  • Sat, Jun 14 2008 3:43 AM In reply to

    • Brickwad
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Simsbury, CT
    • Posts 950
    • Points 11,760

    Re: Pan and Scan HD in SD

    Glacier:
    presumably I can pan and scan using my HD footage with no loss to the SD output.

    BLKDOG,

    You've been working with Symphony Nitris . .did I see this in the SN demo at NAB, or was I dreaming?

    1 MC4 Nitris DX on 12 core 2.66 mac pro 6 Gigs of Ram, 2 Symphony Nitris DX on eight core mac pro with 12 gig ram, 3 MC7 on Mac Pro, IMAC, and Macbook... [view my complete system specs]

    WWLD?

  • Sat, Jun 14 2008 12:59 PM In reply to

    • luca.mg
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Roma - Italy
    • Posts 5,921
    • Points 70,115

    Re: Pan and Scan HD in SD

    I did a quick search in the feature request forum but found no posts regarding custom canvas size and/or a resolution indipent solution in Avid's NLE, but I remember the issue being discussed in the past. As MC 3.0 is just out maybe this time is the right time for the MC 4.0 whishlist.

    Symphony 21.9, BM Intensity Pro 4k, Windows 10, i7-5930K, 32 GB ram, Quadro K620 [view my complete system specs]

    peace luca

  • Sun, Jun 15 2008 1:42 AM In reply to

    • jwrl
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Melbourne, Australia
    • Posts 8,433
    • Points 98,200

    Re: Pan and Scan HD in SD

    The need for resolution independance was not that high in the past.  In fact it could be argued that given the need to guarantee broadcast standards, there was a strong argument against it.

    With the brave new world of HD (all flavours) and 2K/4K plus whatever else is heading down the track the argument in my opinion has changed.  I do anything involving a need for resolution independance in AE, but bouncing media in and out of Avid is a pain.  I've even used Premiere (shudder) when I've had to.

    So yes, Luca,

    luca.mg:
    maybe this time is the right time for the MC 4.0 whishlist.

    and let's put resolution independence right up there.  Let's add multi-timebase support, too.

    MC 7.0.4 - Asus P6T Deluxe V2 mobo - Intel i7 920 2.66GHz - Windows 7 Ult64 SP1 - nVidia Quadro FX 1800 - 16 Gbyte low latency DDR3 RAM - Internal 8 Tb... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Jun 15 2008 2:35 AM In reply to

    • jef
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Feb 26 2006
    • Maryland
    • Posts 3,925
    • Points 47,380

    Re: Pan and Scan HD in SD

    Blofelds Cat:
    I've recently been researching this very same issue. As has already been pointed-out, trackable panning and scanning of the full HD raster within an SD project cannot be achieved natively in Avid.

    Drummond,

    Avid does have a product which will do what you ask - Avid DS.  There are some limitations, and it is not real time, but I use this feature frequently.

    This points out, once again, one of Avids biggest problems.  They have an editing product - DS - that is superior to the MC / Symphony line in many, many respects.  But it is not in their best interest to strongly market something that would imperil their biggest product.

    Check out DS.  It will impress you.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." 2021 iMac w Big Sur [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

  • Sun, Jun 15 2008 1:34 PM In reply to

    • luca.mg
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Roma - Italy
    • Posts 5,921
    • Points 70,115

    Re: Pan and Scan HD in SD

    jef: as a matter of fact DS is not an editing solution: it's a great finishing tool, and if You're faminliar with it You know that everyday editing is not that easy with DS as it is with MC. I also expect to have no limitations on a top of the line product.

    There is not only film and/or television: there's a lot of editing work for tapeless/multimedia/web delivery, where custom formats are more than required; it is my understanding that there were once problems dealing with resolution indipendence and the OMF file format/Avid codecs, backward compatibility between Avid releases being an issue too, but I hope that things become more flexible with the new codecs and the MXF file format. In the case of the original poster, for multiscreen projections, or whenever the canvas is not a standard size, one may offline in MC and finish (as pointed out) in AE/DS or whatever, but it's quite difficult to explain to a client that the job can't be output and that requires the extra time/cost of additional postproduction, especially when the competitors offer all in one solutions. Moreover, I'm Avid fluent while I'm not that skilled with other editors/finishing tools and I'd like not to be forced to switch to other environments for a given job, please note that still I'm talking of editing jobs, I'm not asking MC to make tea for two. For the next MC 4 release with full 64 bit support it may be easier to handle different formats and custom canvas, and I wish that the raster menu in MC 3 will develop and the app becomes resolution indipendent: this would be a major improvement.

    I'm going to link this thread to a brand new post in the feature request area.

    Symphony 21.9, BM Intensity Pro 4k, Windows 10, i7-5930K, 32 GB ram, Quadro K620 [view my complete system specs]

    peace luca

  • Sun, Jun 15 2008 4:11 PM In reply to

    • Flavio
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Posts 231
    • Points 3,085

    Re: Pan and Scan HD in SD

    Just a tought:

     

    yes, in FCP you can put Hd material in an SD timeline, but the result is horrible. The Hd material looks worst than the Sd material in the Sd timeline.

    This happens because FCP does a bad job when down-scaling clips, due to interlacing and other problems, even after a full render. Lots of FCP users complain about this.

    To make the hd clips look good, you need to use third-party plug-ins that do the conversion right.

    So, if Avid introduces this feature, and they should, I hope they do it right. Normally, it takes longer with Avid, but they do it better at the end.

     

    Flavio.

     

  • Sun, Jun 15 2008 5:31 PM In reply to

    Re: Pan and Scan HD in SD

    Have not tried it, but can you not capture in 1080i, change the project format to 30i and then use the Pan & Scan FX?

     

    MC 2021.6, W10, MSI X299M, Intel 9940X, Gigabyte 2080Ti Waterforce, 64GB RAM, Samsung 970 EVO M.2 SSD, BM Mini monitor & Dell UP2718Q. MBP 2019, OSX... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Jun 15 2008 5:39 PM In reply to

    • jef
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Feb 26 2006
    • Maryland
    • Posts 3,925
    • Points 47,380

    Re: Pan and Scan HD in SD

    Hi Luca,

    Sorry, but I will disagree with you here.  I offline / online spots on it all year round.  But then again, most of the spots I am editing have a fairly high amount of effects in them.  Offlineing these in MC is painful because of it's weak effects / compositing / title tools.  To have to explain to a client "We can't really do that effect here very well - just trust me" when I can do it just fine in DS is not good for business.

    Is DS the perfect offline editing tool?  Of course not. But for our company being able to explore all the options of a spot with a client without pain is worth some of the small bumps.  All our systems our dual boot Symphony / DSs.  The editors cringe when they have to work in Symphony.  They are spoiled. Smile

    About the only thing that I would NOT want to offline on a DS is a multicam show or a long doc.

    One problem DS has is that due to price, many offline editors do not get to use it enough to break through what is admititly a steep learning curve.  But there are features that have been part of DS for years that are just coming to MC.  The demos of v3 have had DS editors laughing for weeks.  "Press the space and it starts playing!!"  "Easly drag clips and rearrange the timeline!!" But there are many features from MC that are missed in DS.  There is NO perfect edit system.  It all depends on what you do.

    As to your other comments.  DS has been ignored by Avid management for a long time.  Advanced Codec support has been slow coming.  There have been promises that this will change.  The DS community continues to wait.

    Cheers,

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." 2021 iMac w Big Sur [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

  • Sun, Jun 15 2008 6:18 PM In reply to

    • jef
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Feb 26 2006
    • Maryland
    • Posts 3,925
    • Points 47,380

    Re: Pan and Scan HD in SD

    Dom,

    That is not really the same.  Once the project is changed to 30i, the HD has been scaled down.  If I use pan and scan to resize it using a dve to blow up an already dve reduced image (so to speak).  A real quality hit.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." 2021 iMac w Big Sur [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

  • Sun, Jun 15 2008 8:44 PM In reply to

    • ronn
    • Top 100 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • San Diego
    • Posts 1,015
    • Points 12,770

    Re: Pan and Scan HD in SD

    This is really wierd because in the last 2 weeks I've seen a demo of exactly this - moves on HD clips in an SD project. Of course I have "CRS Syndrome" so I have no idea where I saw it. I've only looked at 40 demos online lately. The guy was talking about doing a push in on an interview at "just the right time." Does this ring a bell with anyone?

    Media Composer 2020.4 with Intensity Pro 4K, Dell i5680, Win-10 64. 32GB RAM, Nvidia GTX1060, Sony FS7, FS5, EX1, A6300, Ninja Assassin, Harley Dyna LowRider... [view my complete system specs]

    Ronn Kilby

    San Diego

Page 1 of 2 (23 items) 1 2 Next >

© Copyright 2011 Avid Technology, Inc.  Terms of Use |  Privacy Policy |  Site Map |  Find a Reseller