Latest post Tue, Jun 16 2020 6:30 AM by camx-media. 83 replies.
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  • Fri, May 29 2020 3:58 AM In reply to

    • Trensharo
    • Not Ranked
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    • Posts 13
    • Points 155

    Re: Intel v AMD for MC

    First of all, you have no clue what the relative stability difference is between those CPUs.  There are iMacs with consumer i7 CPUs and pretty lackluster thermal design being certified, yet a computer built within a Gaming Case with 5-7 case fans and an AIO cooler on a Ryzen 7/9 CPU isn't?  These explanations are non-sensical support speak.

    Intel has good IPC, but AMD is generally very competitive when it comes to productivity workloads that bias to multi-threaded processing - often requiring you to "SKU Up" on Intel CPUs (and spend more money) to get comparable performance.  The lack of HyperThreading on the majority of 9th Gen CPUs widened that gap, as well.  This is precicely why content creators have taken Ryzen up, while gamers have generally stuck to Intel (up until Ryzen 3rd Gen, at least) - because games are predominantly biased to single core performance metrics.

    If someone can game for 8 hours a day on consumer grade hardware, and use that PC for 2-3 years, then I'm just not buying the explanation - especially since many p eople can buy machines cheaper than OEMs offer them, and often build in superior thermal management solutions into those systems (more system fans, bigger/cooler cases, AIO coolers, etc.).

    I'm curious of what scenario you're using to come up with "less stability" and "marginal performance increase."  I'm pretty sure my Ryzen 7 3700x Blows Away the 9th Gen Intel CPU in my iMac, but the iMac is cerftified while the Ryzen is not.

    Avid recommends Intel and Nvidia only because they only test pre-built machines that OEMs send them with those components.  The insinuation that you need Intel and Nvidia in a workstation to have decent longevity and more than marginally better performance (esp. within the same price bracket) is hogwash.

    This has everything to do with Avid refusing to invest more in testing and certifying hardware, and keeping their support costs are low as possible.

  • Fri, May 29 2020 8:12 AM In reply to

    • Mercer
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Apr 15 2010
    • UK
    • Posts 513
    • Points 6,555

    Re: Intel v AMD for MC

    Trensharo:

    Avid recommends Intel and Nvidia only because they only test pre-built machines that OEMs send them with those components.  The insinuation that you need Intel and Nvidia in a workstation to have decent longevity and more than marginally better performance (esp. within the same price bracket) is hogwash.

    This has everything to do with Avid refusing to invest more in testing and certifying hardware, and keeping their support costs are low as possible.

    There are millions of combinations you could build yourself out there. How much investment do think Avid should make in that testing? The reason certification exists amongst professional workstation manufacturers and professional software developers is that high end TV and broadcast people can't afford the time to indulge in hobbies. It's not just about raw performance it's about the durabilty of the hardware stuck, day in day out, in a facility, clogging up with dust, used by many different, often non-technical editors etc - not to mention having rapid onsite manufactuer support to minimise downtime. My laptop is a world away from the flashing plastic gaming laptops. Probably less powerful than quite a few of them but the solid metal case with drain holes built to military specs is worth it - it does everything upto 4K that I need. It is not hogwash that professional image content providers require the precision of Quadros over the raw speed of Geforce and are prepared to pay the premium.

    There's no doubt you can build your own very succesful system, pamper it and use it for 8 hours a day gaming. It's tremendous satisfaction to build something powerful yourself but buying something that is tested, supported and certified to work in a certain way is good business sense. A high end workstation certified by Avid will pay for itself in a handful of weeks or less. 

    If you build your own then you can do the testing and support - HP built my laptop, after all and they support it as well as Avid certifying it - it's quite simple - why should Avid pay for your home built support?

     

    MC with Symphony option, 2020.9, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P3200/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio Mini... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, May 29 2020 10:46 AM In reply to

    • Lukas Boeck
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on Fri, Jul 31 2015
    • Austria
    • Posts 591
    • Points 6,995

    Re: Intel v AMD for MC

    Mercer:

    There are millions of combinations you could build yourself out there.

    On one hand that's true, on the other it's an exaggeration.
    We have a few processor families and a couple of motherbaoard chipsets.
    All Intel combos are good, all AMD should be tested first.

    The reason HP workstations are good, is because they have well designed motherboards with matched drivers & HP support.

    If you buy a well designed board from a reliable server manufacturer you get the same reliability.
    HP has used Tyan and Supermicro boards in the past.

    For most people HP level support will win though.
    I'm tech savy and being able to service my DIY machines out of warranty has greater reward.

    Reliable quality also exists outside of our certifications.
    usually it's not covered in LEDs like a christmas tree like consumer gear.

     

     

    MC 2018.12.2 Cusom bulid Supermicro X9SRL-F, 32 Gig Ram, 3ware 9750 6x6TB Seagate EC Drives, LSI 9207 + LTO-7, Mojo DX, Artist Color, Flanders CM240, GTX... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, May 29 2020 12:34 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Apr 15 2010
    • UK
    • Posts 513
    • Points 6,555

    Re: Intel v AMD for MC

    Lukas Boeck:

    On one hand that's true, on the other it's an exaggeration.

    Hp claims there are up to 4 million possible configurations for the ZBook alone - is it really an exageration?

    https://www8.hp.com/us/en/workstations/Zbook-15.html

    I consider myself tech savy too, having self-built many many times but the downtime makes no business sense any longer to me.

    MC with Symphony option, 2020.9, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P3200/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio Mini... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, May 29 2020 12:54 PM In reply to

    • LDV20
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Fri, Nov 18 2011
    • Posts 302
    • Points 3,610

    Re: Intel v AMD for MC

    Lukas Boeck:

    Pcie is the most direct glue for any periphery.
    But you need a board that makes the lanes acessible, which is the bigger hurdle I found.

     

     

     

    Asus Prime X299 delux II - has 44 lanes: /www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/PRIME-X299-DELUXE-II/specifications/

    been using ausus for many builds - but will look around as well leaning to using i9 10900X - 3.7GHZ but I can overlock to aroune 4.2 with good cooler.  NOCTURA got great reviews D115 - problem is extends over the memory so memory hard to get to should you need to.    also I think it needs low profie memory.  Which I need to firgure out should I go with Noctura

     

    Symphony 2020.8 - Win 10 pro (1909),Gigabyte X299X with i9 10920X cpu, Quadro P2000, 64gig memory, 1TB NV ystem drive, WD 4TB, BM Min Monitor, 11.7 drivers... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, May 29 2020 1:05 PM In reply to

    • Adman
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Atlanta Georgia, USA
    • Posts 5,432
    • Points 61,250
    • BlogAuthor
      Moderator: Avid Free DV
      Moderator: Avid Xpress DV PC
      Moderator: Avid Xpress Studio
      Moderator: MCA PC

    Re: Intel v AMD for MC

    Mercer:

    here are millions of combinations you could build yourself out there. How much investment do think Avid should make in that testing? The reason certification exists amongst professional workstation manufacturers and professional software developers is that high end TV and broadcast people can't afford the time to indulge in hobbies. It's not just about raw performance it's about the durabilty of the hardware stuck, day in day out, in a facility, clogging up with dust, used by many different, often non-technical editors etc - not to mention having rapid onsite manufactuer support to minimise downtime. My laptop is a world away from the flashing plastic gaming laptops. Probably less powerful than quite a few of them but the solid metal case with drain holes built to military specs is worth it - it does everything upto 4K that I need. It is not hogwash that professional image content providers require the precision of Quadros over the raw speed of Geforce and are prepared to pay the premium.

    There's no doubt you can build your own very succesful system, pamper it and use it for 8 hours a day gaming. It's tremendous satisfaction to build something powerful yourself but buying something that is tested, supported and certified to work in a certain way is good business sense. A high end workstation certified by Avid will pay for itself in a handful of weeks or less. 

    If you build your own then you can do the testing and support - HP built my laptop, after all and they support it as well as Avid certifying it - it's quite simple - why should Avid pay for your home built support?

     

    Well said, Mercer. Running a business has enough headaches as it is. When hiring an editor, I wouldn't be hiring a computer techie, I would be hiring an artist with top shelf computer skills. :)

    Mac Pro, 64GB Ram. 1TB SSD system drive, 250Gb SSD external (media) drive. QHD Ultra wide, thunderbolt LG monitor, MC 2019.12.1. Pro Tools 11 HD (Mbox... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, May 29 2020 4:19 PM In reply to

    • Trensharo
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Tue, Nov 27 2018
    • Posts 13
    • Points 155

    Re: Intel v AMD for MC

    Mercer:
    A high end workstation certified by Avid will pay for itself in a handful of weeks or less. 

    This is marketing speak.  Many of us have been using NLEs like Resolve that are far more demanding of hardware than Media Composer for years, and we have seen no hardware failures despite running these systems under heavy load day after day.  I reject this notion.

    Certified by Avid means nothing other than "the OEM sent us this machine and we think it works fine."  They barely test anything.

    Avid certified consumer iMacs and MacBook Pros, FFS.  You're ignoring the elephant in the room, Lol.

    And again, Avid certifies a lot more than "workstation."  I'm 1,300 miles away from hoem right now, and I doubt Avid expected me to travel with a $10k workstation, but I'm not about to pay an extra $1,300 for a consumer MacBook Pro that's "certified" to still get specs marginally worse than the PC Laptop I'm using right now.

    Mercer:
    If you build your own then you can do the testing and support - HP built my laptop, after all and they support it as well as Avid certifying it - it's quite simple - why should Avid pay for your home built support?

    I don't think you understand how support works, and I don't think you realize that you can actually buy Ryzen/RX machines from builders and OEMs that will support the entire machine, either...  Think a little.

    Avid needs to test these CPUs and GPUs so that they can give their users better options when it comes to system configuration.  They need to test the CPUs and GPUs so that OEMs can deliver machines to users utilizing those components.  As long as Avid says they only support Intel and mostly Nvidia, there is no reason for OEMs to build systems using Ryzen/ThreadRipper CPUs and RX GPUs.

    Why would an OEM build a system for use with a pirce of software, when the developers blatantly states the components used are unsupportable.

    Avid turning around and blaming the OEMs for only sending them those components is passing the buck. The OEMs only send machines with those components because those are all Avid Supports. Avid needs to actually invest in tesing so that they can support those components and give OEMs the options for building with them.

    Looks like you bought into the corporate double speak.

    Lastly, testing the CPUs and GPUs on a reliable setup (in a test bench with other known compoentns) would allow Avid to isolate them and get a better idea of compatibility.

    But insinuating that Intel i7s have better durability and longevity than Ryzen 7 CPUs is... beyond curious... and that's basically what's happening here.

  • Fri, May 29 2020 5:06 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Apr 15 2010
    • UK
    • Posts 513
    • Points 6,555

    Re: Intel v AMD for MC

    Trensharo:

    Mercer:
    A high end workstation certified by Avid will pay for itself in a handful of weeks or less. 

    This is marketing speak.  

    Certified by Avid means nothing other than "the OEM sent us this machine and we think it works fine."  They barely test anything.

    I don't think you understand how support works, and I don't think you realize that you can actually buy Ryzen/RX machines from builders and OEMs that will support the entire machine, either...  Think a little.

    Looks like you bought into the corporate double speak.

    But insinuating that Intel i7s have better durability and longevity than Ryzen 7 CPUs is... beyond curious... and that's basically what's happening here.

     

    It is not marketing speak - my laptop paid for itself in 2 weeks. I have been in this business for 34 years, and in that time I have built many systems including full facilities I think I understand support a little.

    I didn't buy and do not buy into corporate speak. I have learnt what makes money and what doesn't and I only self built when I had very little work. When you are full swing it pays not to have to do it.

    I mentioned and insinuated nothing about any particular cpu.

    But I will say, since you believe there is nothing to Avid's support, and you seem to know everything, just this: In the case of the 17 G5 ZBook I have, they tested every permutation from each i7 to each Xeon, from 16-64GB Ram, and each with either the Quadro P32/42/5200 graphics cards. And then all that with the G2 thunderbolt docking station in both software only and with each permutation each of the Avid TB3 I/O devices. That's just 1 laptop on the list and you say they just get sent a pc fire it up with Avid and  if it works that's that. Can you imagine how much work is required for all of the certified machines together.

    Finally they do not support the pc/mac hardware - they only guarantee full support for Avid if you have the certified hardware. The pc hardware support is the responsibility of the manufacturer. In your case yourself - good luck.

     

    MC with Symphony option, 2020.9, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P3200/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio Mini... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, May 29 2020 6:23 PM In reply to

    Re: Intel v AMD for MC

    Trensharo,

    This thread has been fun to read again. It's a never ending story where new technology causes the questioning of the status quo. The forum is full of similar questions and discussions and that's fine.

    I believe your problem is not with Avid but with all oem manufacturers. Asking Avid to support diy systems is a mute discussion. It's never going to happen as it would make the definition of a supported system far too complex, not economically viable as businesses are not interested. In other words: you could copy an HP system, put the exact same components in another box, we would all agree, inc all at Avid,  that both systems are functionaly identical but still only the HP system will be supported.

    As soon as HP, Dell, IBM, etc... start putting AMD processors in their workstations AVid will start testing them and we will be able to determine if AMD CPU'S are good options for diy builds.

    Many also agree with you, the internet is filled with complaints, that Apple systems, especially Macbook pro's and transcan Mac pro's have not been good quality products with only the new 2020 models showing improvement. But because of their image and established user base in the audiovisual market the support was (unfortunately) never dropped. Right or wrong...  let's agree that choices people make to use or support brand A and or B and not C are subjective.

     

     

     

    From the old Apple Quadro 950 to HP Z8xx. My current own system: 1x Z420 E5 1650 16GB memory, 128GB SSD, 1x XW8600, 2x 3.0Ghz Quadcore, 12GB memory... [view my complete system specs]

    Jeroen van Eekeres 

    Technical director, Broadcast support engineer, Avid ACSR.

     

    Always have a backup of your projects....Always!!!! Yes Always!!!!

    A.V.I.D....... Another Version In Development

    www.mediaoffline.com

     

     

     

  • Fri, May 29 2020 8:05 PM In reply to

    • Trensharo
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Tue, Nov 27 2018
    • Posts 13
    • Points 155

    Re: Intel v AMD for MC

    Or Avid can build test benches to test.  It's not hard, and not even that expensive.

    They can fund it with the price increase they applied to Media Composer subscriptions not long ago...

    Using the workstation argument is weak when Avid certifies/supports iMacs, MacBooks, and Mac Minis with consumer Intel CPUs and integrated graphics.  I'm not even sure why people are still trying to emphasize that in the responses.

  • Fri, May 29 2020 9:46 PM In reply to

    Re: Intel v AMD for MC

    If that's what you believe I would suggest you visit a few of Avid's customers, TV stations and production houses where you live. You're welcome to visit them here if you want to.

     

     

    From the old Apple Quadro 950 to HP Z8xx. My current own system: 1x Z420 E5 1650 16GB memory, 128GB SSD, 1x XW8600, 2x 3.0Ghz Quadcore, 12GB memory... [view my complete system specs]

    Jeroen van Eekeres 

    Technical director, Broadcast support engineer, Avid ACSR.

     

    Always have a backup of your projects....Always!!!! Yes Always!!!!

    A.V.I.D....... Another Version In Development

    www.mediaoffline.com

     

     

     

  • Fri, May 29 2020 9:47 PM In reply to

    • Trensharo
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Tue, Nov 27 2018
    • Posts 13
    • Points 155

    Re: Intel v AMD for MC

    Jeroen van Eekeres:

    If that's what you believe I would suggest you visit a few of Avid's customers, TV stations and production houses where you live. You're welcome to visit them here if you want to.

     

     

    At this point I'm not even sure WTF you're responding to.

    Avid has a document on their website that lists certified machines.  I'm sure Broadcast stations aren't using Mac Mac Minis for editing, and I'm definitely sure that 13" MacBook Pros were not designed for "24/7 editing,"  yet they were certified.  

    Go read that document.

    Avid doesn't have professionals that touch base with OEMs and ask for these things?  They just sit around and certify ONLY what is sent to them?  That's some interesting insight into product strategy and how enthusiastic the company is re: improving their product and their market reach (though they've long been known to be complacent).

    If Avid has the time to certify Mac Minis and 13" MacBook Pros, then they should be able to certify a few machines with Ryzen CPUs.  I don't remember anyone here asking them to certify everyone's self-built PC, or to cover the entire market of consumer PC hardware.

    It's not like the OEMs would not send them a few samples if they asked for some to test for certification.

  • Sat, May 30 2020 9:22 AM In reply to

    Re: Intel v AMD for MC

    Back to the point at hand. 

     

    After a poster earlier on mentiones Pcie Lanes and consumer in the same paragraph i have gone back and attempted to get a better grip on my knowledge before pushing go on this self build. 

     

    So I think i will do away with the Gigabyte Z490 board and step up to the X299X platform. 

     

    Main issue is a hefty price increase of double for the MB and 20% for the processor. 

     

    But given i will look to run this rig for many years to come its a justified jump. 

     

    My new self build will most likly be as follows

     

    Gigabyte x299x Designare 10g - supports up to 128gb Ram and 40 Pcie lanes

    Intel i9 10920x - middle ground but will be fine for my needs

    64gb quad channel ddr4 2666 ram - MB has 8 slots so will add another 64 gig down the road. 

    2tb samsung m.2 drive as a scratch disk .

    Dark base Pro rev.2 full Tower

    Be Quiet dark rock pro 4 cooler

    850w power supply

    And the most difficult decision : i have decided to go away from the Quadro RTX 4000 in favour of a (consumer) RTX 2080ti - im prepared to be yelled at but at the price point you just cant beat that card. More of every type of core than the RTX 4000 and only a feww hunderd pounds more. Im using Davinci a lot more now for colour and its a recommended spec card for that. 

     

    My system isnt a supported avid system so im prepared to figddle if needed to get everything working. 

     

    Any way im truley sorry for ripping off the bandaid and exposing a festering unhealed wound such as Intel v AMD on this forum. 

    *****Stay Tuned***** [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, May 30 2020 11:57 AM In reply to

    • TVJohn
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Fri, Nov 4 2005
    • Bayonne NJ
    • Posts 4,375
    • Points 54,035

    Re: Intel v AMD for MC

    Don't scrimp on the power supply. A quality unit here is called for. Its easy to be missled by wattage ratings. I do not know whether the modular connectors add another failure point, but its worth thinking about avoiding those. Most OEM computers do not use these, if that means anything.

    I consider an AMD vs Intel conversation a useful topic.

    Dell Display U2713HM(2560x1440), AMD FX8350 8core, AMD 990FX mobo, 32gig-DDR3-1600, Quadro K620/GTX260/core 216, Audigy2zs, 1TB SSD system drive, 2TB SATA... [view my complete system specs]

    Using MC 20.9. Win 20H2  Avid FX6.4, Vegas Pro 17/ DVD Architect 6pro, DVDit6.4proHD, CCE Basic, TmpGe Express4, TmpGe Authoring Works 4, DVDLab-Studio. Sony EX-1R, Canon XH-A1, GL2, GL1, Canon EOS 60D

  • Sat, May 30 2020 12:09 PM In reply to

    Re: Intel v AMD for MC

    Trensharo:
    I'm sure Broadcast stations aren't using Mac Mac Minis for editing, and I'm definitely sure that 13" MacBook Pros were not designed for "24/7 editing,"  yet they were certified.

    Trensharo,

    Exactly! And in Apple's case I fully agree with you that Avid's choices to certify Mac mini's and the 2017-2019 Macbook Pro's and Mac pro's essentially were only based on the marketing value of Apple, not the product value. But again who's fault is that? Trying to use ratio to determine why some of Avid's customers stick with certain brands, in this case Apple, is not working for me, still obviously many do.

    Trensharo:
    They just sit around and certify ONLY what is sent to them?
     

    No, They certify what the largest part of their user base, the professional TV broadcast and production market, has been using for 2 decades: Apple, HP, Dell, IBM/Lenovo. If you want to know why, talk/visit to any of those (TV, production) companies that uses and supports hundreds/thousands of PC's and servers.

    Do they all choose those brands because they optimize/maximize CPU/GPU performance? No. They choose them because of the services accomodating their workstations and servers. Things like: support contracts, long term product availability and updates, within 24 hours replacement of parts (with exact identical), cooperate licensing schemes. In other words, the logistics to keep your workstation/server running 24/7 for 3-5 years. These are conditions the consumer and pro DIY shops (and Apple) simply can't meet.

     

     

    From the old Apple Quadro 950 to HP Z8xx. My current own system: 1x Z420 E5 1650 16GB memory, 128GB SSD, 1x XW8600, 2x 3.0Ghz Quadcore, 12GB memory... [view my complete system specs]

    Jeroen van Eekeres 

    Technical director, Broadcast support engineer, Avid ACSR.

     

    Always have a backup of your projects....Always!!!! Yes Always!!!!

    A.V.I.D....... Another Version In Development

    www.mediaoffline.com

     

     

     

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