Latest post Mon, May 11 2020 11:34 AM by Rihafilm. 55 replies.
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  • Mon, Feb 24 2020 1:15 PM In reply to

    Re: FrameFlex Quality Issues

    Thanks for doing these tests Benoit, your results are quite relevant to what I'm working on at the moment.  

    Cheers,

    Andi

    HP ZBook G6 15 2.6Ghz 6-core i7 9th Gen Nvidia Quadro T2000 4GB 64GB RAM Win 10 Pro MC Ultimate 2018.12.11 MacbookPro 15 2019 6 core 2.6GHz i9... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Feb 24 2020 3:44 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: FrameFlex Quality Issues

    Rihafilm:

    Marianna, are you sure about this beeing fixed in 2019.12?

    Support sent me this mail in mid December:

    "Media Composer 2019.12 will be released shortly. Unfortunately this bug fix didn't make the cut. This is however fixed in MC 2018.12.9 (available on the Avid Download Center), and it will most likely be in the version after MC 2019.12."

    And this is what they sent me a few days ago:

    "I'm still waiting for the next releases with this fix. It will be fixed in MC 2020.x when it's out, and in MC 2019.12.x when that patch is out. I have no dates for them yet, but they are most likely not too far away"

    Just sent a quick note to the QA guy and should have scoop soon......

    Marianna

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  • Mon, Feb 24 2020 4:01 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: FrameFlex Quality Issues

    BenoitM:

    I've just installed 2018.12.10. and did some frameflex+interpolation comparative tests.

    Bottom line: even with 18.12.10, Standard (Bilinear) is significantly sharper than Advanced (Polyphase) in frameflex reframing.

    Scenario: a UHD (3840x2160) H.264 25p AMA clip in a 1080i50 sequence; due to shooting conditions and camera model, the clip is not extremely sharp (still sharper than a HD 1080 clip), but a bit noisy.
    The clip has no source frameflex applied (i.e. Source settings: Image size = raster dimension) , and the timeline clip frameflex settings are:
    Size = 75
    Rotation = 0.3

    The test consisted of watching the sequence in 5 different versions both on a full HD (consumer) TV set and on the composer monitor (magnified), at normal speed or frame-by-frame.
    The results, from softest to sharpest (subjectively):

    Very interesting test Benoit.  There is one part of the test I wish could be changed as it could be creating an extra layer of processing that might muddy the waters.  You show that your sequence is 1080i50 and the source is UHD which is progressive be definition.  This means in addition to the scaling which is what you are interested in, the clip is being manipulated by Avid to be interlace.  I would think the best test would be to stay in a progressive sequence.

    I am going to try and recreate your setup and procedure that way if I can find the time.

    One clarifiaction I would ask for:  When you speak of Advanced or Bilinear you are talking about the settings in the Render area of system settings, correct?

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." mostly 8.12.9|OS 10.14.x - iMac Pro 2019 - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown"... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Mon, Feb 24 2020 6:08 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: FrameFlex Quality Issues

    Marianna:

    Rihafilm:

    Marianna, are you sure about this beeing fixed in 2019.12?

    Support sent me this mail in mid December:

    "Media Composer 2019.12 will be released shortly. Unfortunately this bug fix didn't make the cut. This is however fixed in MC 2018.12.9 (available on the Avid Download Center), and it will most likely be in the version after MC 2019.12."

    And this is what they sent me a few days ago:

    "I'm still waiting for the next releases with this fix. It will be fixed in MC 2020.x when it's out, and in MC 2019.12.x when that patch is out. I have no dates for them yet, but they are most likely not too far away"

    Just sent a quick note to the QA guy and should have scoop soon......

    Marianna

    The fix should be included in both 2019.12.1 and 2020.2 when released.

    Marianna

    Director of Online Communities and Forums/Customer Advocate [view my complete system specs]

    marianna.montague@avid.com

    mobile 813-493-6800

    Twitter:  avidmarianna

    Facebook: Marianna Montague

    www.avidcustomerassociation.com   |  Connect 2019 | April 6-7 | Aria, Las Vegas, NV

    WWLD

  • Mon, Feb 24 2020 8:09 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: FrameFlex Quality Issues

    SPOILER ALERT:   THE GPU DID IT!!!

    So I recreated Benoit’s test as much as possible in a 1920x1080p 23.976 project.  The source was a 2048x1152p  23.976 ProRes 444 clip from an Arri Amira.  It was Log C so I left the appropriate  LUT on through out testing.

    System is MC 2018.12.9, iMac Pro, OS 10.14.1

    One other thing I was careful to set was on the Media Creation Settings page under the Render tab, I made sure that Effects Processing was set to 16-bit with Same as Source unchecked.  Linked Source Scaling/Quality was Full.

    After a first run though of the test I basically agreed with Benoit’s assessments.  The biggest takeaway for me was the difference seen when you change the Image Interpolation render settings (found under the Render Settings page) from Standard (Bilinear) to Advanced (Polyphase).  There is a definite difference.  And to my eye, I agree that Standard looks better.

    I show two screen captures for the Record window of MC zoomed in 3 clicks from default sizing and repoed to show certain features.

    When looking carefully at the curve of the glasses frame on the Advanced sample you can see some stepping.  To my eye, this looks almost like macro blocking rather than aliasing, but that may in fact be what aliasing looks like on an image like this.  But it is there.  There is also a difference in the beard stubble and skin texture.  In general the bilinear feels smoother.

    BUT …  I then decided to test one more thing.  GPU.  Go to the next post.

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." mostly 8.12.9|OS 10.14.x - iMac Pro 2019 - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown"... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Mon, Feb 24 2020 8:13 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: FrameFlex Quality Issues

    The next two still show the difference when Render is set to Advanced and GPU is either Enabled or Disabled. 

    With GPU disabled, Advanced does not have the same blockiness shown when GPU is enabled.

    This - to me - seems to be the issue here.  Thoughts?

     

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." mostly 8.12.9|OS 10.14.x - iMac Pro 2019 - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown"... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

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    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Tue, Feb 25 2020 5:07 AM In reply to

    Re: FrameFlex Quality Issues

    First, Thank you both for all these tests. It's great to see and learn about such things.

    Second, I've already been rendering in Advanced, without GPU, so I feel lucky given your conclusions.

    Third: I've been testing with one of these 4K resolution star files, plus doing my own stubble check!


    https://images.app.goo.gl/Y6KVTLSX9Rvr8bGQ8

     It's good to know what to look for, but if any particulular degree of rotation or minute scale change makes a difference, it's kind  of subjective and punishing to test, so thanks again for fighting the good fight for best practices...

    For my needs, I am mainly interested in evaluating resolution difference between a 4K file's mixdown in a 4K Project  of a 3DWarp FX at 200 Scale vs. the Same File set to 50 in FraneFlex land, rendered similarly and compared as seen in an HD Project. It can seem surprisingly close, but I don't have proper monitors to evaluate. 

    *there is plenty on FrameFlex @ the 24p blog, for example: http://24p.com/wordpress/?p=154

     

     

     

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  • Tue, Feb 25 2020 3:38 PM In reply to

    • BenoitM
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    Re: FrameFlex Quality Issues

    jef:
    You show that your sequence is 1080i50 and the source is UHD which is progressive be definition.  This means in addition to the scaling which is what you are interested in, the clip is being manipulated by Avid to be interlace.  I would think the best test would be to stay in a progressive sequence.

    Agree, UHD 25p to HD 50i adds a layer of complexity but this is how things are in the project I'm working on (and where I spent a bit of time digging...) so my test is by no means meant to be a reference of any kind ;-)

    But AFAIK choosing "Both Fields" in the Motion Adapter that MC adds to the 25p clip to make it fit a 50i timeline is essentially creating a PsF clip with no vertical res loss or filtering...

    ("Use frame blending in Motion Adapters" is unchecked)

    jef:
    One clarifiaction I would ask for:  When you speak of Advanced or Bilinear you are talking about the settings in the Render area of system settings, correct?

    Correct

    MC 2018.12.10 (+Symphony)/BCC2019 12.5.2/RED 5.6; BlackMagic Ultrastudio Mini Monitor+Recorder (11.4.1); DELL Precision 5530 - Intel Core i7-8850H 2.6... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Feb 25 2020 3:43 PM In reply to

    • BenoitM
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    Re: FrameFlex Quality Issues

    jef:
    With GPU disabled, Advanced does not have the same blockiness shown when GPU is enabled.

    interesting ! Worth testing on PC with my quadro P2000 ...next time I have a few minutes :D

    Is that in the "Disable GPU effects" checkbox on the Render page ?

    MC 2018.12.10 (+Symphony)/BCC2019 12.5.2/RED 5.6; BlackMagic Ultrastudio Mini Monitor+Recorder (11.4.1); DELL Precision 5530 - Intel Core i7-8850H 2.6... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Feb 25 2020 4:30 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: FrameFlex Quality Issues

    BenoitM:

    jef:
    With GPU disabled, Advanced does not have the same blockiness shown when GPU is enabled.

    interesting ! Worth testing on PC with my quadro P2000 ...next time I have a few minutes :D

    Is that in the "Disable GPU effects" checkbox on the Render page ?

    That is correct.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." mostly 8.12.9|OS 10.14.x - iMac Pro 2019 - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown"... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Mon, May 11 2020 11:34 AM In reply to

    • Rihafilm
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    Re: FrameFlex Quality Issues

    All the current known frameflex quality issues are addressed in the latest MC releases.
    
    MC 2020.4 (full installer)
    MC 2019.12.1 (patch from MC 2019.12 > 2019.12.1)
    MC 2018.12.11 (full installer, or patch from MC 2018.12.3 > 2019.12.1)
    MC 2019.7, DNxIO 11.2, Windows 10 x64 Pro, 2x Xeon E5-2630 v3, Quadro M4000 (431.02), 64GB RAM, RAIDdeluxe 6Gb SAS 96TB 16-bay RAID-6 [view my complete system specs]
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