Latest post Mon, May 11 2020 11:34 AM by Rihafilm. 55 replies.
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  • Sat, Sep 14 2019 12:50 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: FrameFlex Quality Issues

    Rihafilm:

    I totally agree with you, BarkinMadd. This is a very big deal.
    I'm totally stunned that
    A: I was the first one to notice and report the problem (we are only a small company with 2 Avid seats)
    B: that no one seems to care that much
    To me this is the biggest Media Composer bug in a long time and definitely needs more attention.

    Well to be fair, the info you shared from support (thank you btw) does say this is a Windows only bug.  We are Mac based so have not seen it.  Don't know the breakdown between OS users and how that may have affected catching this.

    Totally agree that this is a critical issue.  Glad you were diligent on pushing the issue.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." mostly 8.12.9|OS 10.14.x - iMac Pro 2019 - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown"... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Sat, Sep 14 2019 1:06 PM In reply to

    Re: [BUG] FrameFlex Quality Issues with MC 2018.12.7 - 2019.8

    Hi, I was just hitting my head against a wall with this same issue. Although in a different context. I just upgraded MC to 2019.7 after quite a while. I never do an upgrade or update while in the middle of a big project, as AVID has a tendency to *** something up everytime you update. So now that I'm between two big features I thought its a good time to update.

    I however needed to make a new DCP from the previous project. For this I've been using the following workflow.

    Original edit and project is 4K. In here I make a 4K video mixdown of the sequence (DNxHR HQX 4096x2160). Then I have a separate 2K project set up, for making 2K output files. So in this 2K project I make a new 2K sequence, open up the 4K mixdown from the other project, throw it on the timeline, mark it and make a 2K (DNxHR HQX 2048x1080) mixdown. When done I replace the 4K mix in the sequence with the 2K mix and delete the entire 4K mix file (which releases 500GB of storage. Then finally I output a same as source QT file of the timeline.

    Ended up with this workflow after much testing and this gave a decent 2K result that I could use for then making DCPs. H.264 and ProRes files through Adobe Media Encoder and EasyDCP.

    So now I needed to make a new DCP from the old project. Fired up the new version of AVID, went through the same moves and made the DCP + 3 H.264 files and 4 different ProRes files that also were needed (feature is 86min so it took all in all a fair bit of crunch time).

    Then at the end I had a quick comparisson with a previous DCP and the new one. And TADAA! It was much softer than before.

    Started investigating and came to the conclusion, using old 4K mixes and old 2K mixes to compare and run through the same workflow, that the problem is in the way FrameFlex now works in the new version. Which is a huge step backwards.

    So apparently all I can do is roll back to an old version of MC. But now that I've had the old project open in the new MC, I probably cant' anymore open it if I roll back. And don't really want to run up a new workflow with extra software, would wish that MC would be capable to go from start to finish.

    Here is a cap from the QT output file of an old 2K mix.

    And this is from a new 2K mix, done with new version MC, but same workflow and same original 4K mix file.

    New 2K mix

     

    MC 2019.12, Windows 10 Pro,Dual Xeon E5-2650 v3, Quadro K4200, 128GB RAM, BMD DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K. [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Sep 14 2019 5:46 PM In reply to

    Re: [BUG] FrameFlex Quality Issues with MC 2018.12.7 - 2019.8

    Did some more research trying to find a workaround. Not yet sure if this is it for the moment, but I noticed a considerable difference in the render intent settings and how they affect the FrameFlex. In short, Advanced (Polyphase) gives the softest and worst result, Standard (bilinear) is already much sharper, and strangely enough Draft (Nearest Neighbor) gives the absolutely sharpest result.

    Not sure about other scaling sizes, but at least for me when going 4K to 2K with maintaining image content, this results in something that can at least be called sharp. Need to now test with complete film and if there are any other adverse effects from using Draft as render intent.

    Did not notice any difference on any other render settings or combinations.

    Drives me a bit crazy that Advanced and the slowest render gives the softest result. Maybe somebody smarter can explain this to me.

    This is Advanced

    Advanced

    This is Standard

    Standard

    This is Draft

    draft

     

    MC 2019.12, Windows 10 Pro,Dual Xeon E5-2650 v3, Quadro K4200, 128GB RAM, BMD DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K. [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Sep 14 2019 6:15 PM In reply to

    • jef
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Feb 26 2006
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    Re: [BUG] FrameFlex Quality Issues with MC 2018.12.7 - 2019.8

    I am no expert in this area, but I have read a fair amount as I am interested.

    The possible reason you are seeing Draft (Nearest Neighbor) seeming to be the sharpest might be due to filtering - or in this case the lack of it.

    If you are scaling down to 1/2 the size of the original image, then Nearest Neighbor can just throw away 3 of 4 pixels when going from 4k to 2k and do no filtering to that remaining pixel.

    The Advanced scaling method is using some sort of filtering.  Filtering is a complex subject.  There are many types that can be used.  But in this downscale situation, filtering is basically taking 4 pixels and mixing/blending/combining them to create 1 new pixel.  With any filtering method there are pros and cons.  Some are considered better for upscaling, some for downscaling.

    So if I am correct about how Nearest Neighbor is working in your case, it may seem sharper because this is a farily organic image.  It could be possible that a different type of image would not look best and that Advanced would be more pleasing.

    This is just a somewhat educated guess.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." mostly 8.12.9|OS 10.14.x - iMac Pro 2019 - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown"... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Sat, Sep 14 2019 6:57 PM In reply to

    Re: [BUG] FrameFlex Quality Issues with MC 2018.12.7 - 2019.8

    Hi Jef, thanks for the reply and explanation. I was maybe pretending to be a bit more clueless about what is happening than I actually am. Did take some advanced image processing courses back at university. Courses on how these types of matrixes and arrays for processing pixel data work, and still remember some, mainly that it gets quite complicated fast. Hoping that somebody at Avid might be able to explain why the Advanced setting does such an appalling work :)

    Referring to the results of the previous post, I was afraid that Nearest Neighbor might result in some quite heavy jagged edges, even if it is perceptibly the sharpest. So as you also said, in some other situations it might not be what you want. In this case for example all the burnt in subs got quite horribly jagged, and during motion you could start seeing the uneven edges, even if they look sharp.

    So in the end, after some more testing, I came to the conclusion that Standard (bilinear) does the best job of down scaling. At least until Avid figures out what Advanced is supposed to do.

    Standard on 2019.7 also gives me pretty much the identical result on down scale as what ever 2018.12 version I was using before updating a few weeks ago.

    I still think there is much to wish for in this type of processing from MC. But hopefully anybody having the same type of softness and blurrines issues on a Win system and 2019.7 can find some help from this. Switch render to Standard from Advanced when downscaling.

    Still need to do more tests. Just having a new go mixing down the full project, hopefully this is the workaround I needed. And also just started another big project that will be in HD and use 4K material as source, so will start testing this also on that and see if the first demos I just made are also soft due to the same reasons.

    MC 2019.12, Windows 10 Pro,Dual Xeon E5-2650 v3, Quadro K4200, 128GB RAM, BMD DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K. [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Sep 14 2019 7:11 PM In reply to

    • jef
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Feb 26 2006
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    Re: [BUG] FrameFlex Quality Issues with MC 2018.12.7 - 2019.8

    Well then you are way ahead of me.  I just know what I read in the newspaper ...  Big Smile

    What I would like some more options.  Let ME make a choice. Advanced Polyphase rarely shows up when I am looking at lists and expanations of image processing filters.  It may be fine, but I wish I could find more info on it.

    I like to use Fusion as an example of letting the user choose what filtering options to use in a specific task.  A long list and good documentation about the options.

    And if you dig into the lowly Avid Pan and Zoom, it has a pretty long list of filter options.

    Avid DS treated me like an adult and gave choices (limited, but hey!!) 

    I am just worried that this request goes against what seems like Avid's desire to keep the system simple for the majority of users.  See making FrameFlex the only avenue to dealing with resolution independence in a sequence.

    Jef

     

     

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." mostly 8.12.9|OS 10.14.x - iMac Pro 2019 - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown"... [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

    Old Stuff  http://vimeo.com/album/3037796

  • Mon, Sep 16 2019 9:45 PM In reply to

    Re: FrameFlex Quality Issues

    I actually ran into this recently and wasn't sure why our 4K footage looked "aliased" - but I found that when I would make adjustments, the image would clear up. I quickly rendered it and then the issue went away.

    To fix the issue, I would do the FrameFlex. Render it. It looked bad. I broke the render and made a small adjustment. I rendered again and it looked good.

    I have not gotten a "solid" problem with this bug. -- We are on 2019.7.

    Windows 10 Enterprise - Dell Precision 7820 - 32GB RAM - DNxIQ - Nvidia Quadro P4000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Sep 19 2019 4:05 PM In reply to

    Re: [BUG] FrameFlex Quality Issues with MC 2018.12.7 - 2019.8

    Hi, everybody. I opened on my part a support case into this. And got the following reply. Haven't yet had time to check if it works, but just so you all know who suffer from this in some way or the other.

    "We have identified a frameflex issue that can happen in specific situations with some systems (not all).

    This is already logged as MCCET-3237 and development is looking in to this.

    I have two options, downgrade to 2018.12.3, or use the console command:

    EDO ACPLCPU

    ..then enable and disable the track monitor, clear renders, re-render.

    To set back to default, use the console command EDO any, and toggle the monitor.

    We hope to get this fixed as soon as possible."

    MC 2019.12, Windows 10 Pro,Dual Xeon E5-2650 v3, Quadro K4200, 128GB RAM, BMD DeckLink Mini Monitor 4K. [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Sep 26 2019 9:32 AM In reply to

    • Rihafilm
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Mon, Jul 19 2010
    • Posts 90
    • Points 1,210

    Re: [BUG] FrameFlex Quality Issues with MC 2018.12.7 - 2019.8

    Update on this case:
    "It will not make the new release that is out in a few days as it was already starting the final tests when the case was created, but maybe the next release."

    MC 2019.7, DNxIO 11.2, Windows 10 x64 Pro, 2x Xeon E5-2630 v3, Quadro M4000 (431.02), 64GB RAM, RAIDdeluxe 6Gb SAS 96TB 16-bay RAID-6 [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Oct 22 2019 5:31 PM In reply to

    Re: [BUG] FrameFlex Quality Issues with MC 2018.12.7 - 2019.8

    Same issue here, also not able to bake in any Frameflex on transcode.  Tried the Console command and it had no affect.

    All PC Win 10 - 11 MC/Symphony Nitris DX 2018.12.5 - Interplay 3.6/90TB Mirrored Avid ISIS 5500 [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Oct 29 2019 7:54 PM In reply to

    Re: [BUG] FrameFlex Quality Issues with MC 2018.12.7 - 2019.8

    I would like to keep this up on the top of thread until it is fixed.

    All PC Win 10 - 11 MC/Symphony Nitris DX 2018.12.5 - Interplay 3.6/90TB Mirrored Avid ISIS 5500 [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Nov 19 2019 9:38 AM In reply to

    • Rihafilm
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    • Joined on Mon, Jul 19 2010
    • Posts 90
    • Points 1,210

    Re: [BUG] FrameFlex Quality Issues with MC 2018.12.7 - 2019.8

    Looking at the release notes for 2019.11 it looks like this serious issue still hasn't been fixed yet. Extremely disappointing.

    MC 2019.7, DNxIO 11.2, Windows 10 x64 Pro, 2x Xeon E5-2630 v3, Quadro M4000 (431.02), 64GB RAM, RAIDdeluxe 6Gb SAS 96TB 16-bay RAID-6 [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Dec 11 2019 7:26 PM In reply to

    Re: [BUG] FrameFlex Quality Issues with MC 2018.12.7 - 2019.8

    Any kind of update on this issue, eta on update 2018.12.???? version.

     

    thanks

     

     

    All PC Win 10 - 11 MC/Symphony Nitris DX 2018.12.5 - Interplay 3.6/90TB Mirrored Avid ISIS 5500 [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Dec 12 2019 5:42 PM In reply to

    • richiethep
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    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Posts 7
    • Points 85

    Re: FrameFlex Quality Issues

    Thank you for helping solve this problem!  Advanced Polyphase option was the culprit on my system.  Once I changed the render setting to standard, frame flex stills look fine again.  I was pulling my hair out after I upgraded to MC2019 a few days ago.

    best,

    Rich P. 

  • Sat, Jan 4 2020 4:11 PM In reply to

    • Rihafilm
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Mon, Jul 19 2010
    • Posts 90
    • Points 1,210

    Re: FrameFlex Quality Issues

    Still not fixed! Angry

    MC 2019.7, DNxIO 11.2, Windows 10 x64 Pro, 2x Xeon E5-2630 v3, Quadro M4000 (431.02), 64GB RAM, RAIDdeluxe 6Gb SAS 96TB 16-bay RAID-6 [view my complete system specs]
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