Latest post Tue, Sep 22 2015 3:28 AM by persyst. 14 replies.
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  • Wed, Aug 26 2015 2:08 PM

    • persyst
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    What Hard Drive to get for 4K Editing?

    Can anyone recommend a specific hard drive model to buy for 4K editing, that you are actually using. Something under $2500, please.

    Thanks!

    Media Composer 2019.6 Pro Tools 2019.6 Mac Pro 2013, MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.7GHz 12-core with 30MB of L3 cache • 64GB (4x16GB) of 1866MHz DDR3... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Aug 26 2015 9:20 PM In reply to

    Re: What Hard Drive to get for 4K Editing?

    Depends on what format media you will be working with and your proposed workflow.

    Are you looking at offline editing or direct online?

    Will you be doing the finishing on that system.

    How much content (runtime) will you be looking at?

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  • Wed, Aug 26 2015 11:16 PM In reply to

    • persyst
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    Re: What Hard Drive to get for 4K Editing?

    Thanks for the reply. I'm still new to all the terms. In what regard do you mean "on/offline"?

    I'll be doing all the editing, titling, color correcting, etc from start to finish on a brand new Mac Pro 12core, 64GB. I'm importing the 4K Footage at full resolution into the Media Composer native format for the editing.  It's about 5 hours of 4K footage. 

    Looking forward to your response.

    Thanks!

    Media Composer 2019.6 Pro Tools 2019.6 Mac Pro 2013, MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.7GHz 12-core with 30MB of L3 cache • 64GB (4x16GB) of 1866MHz DDR3... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Aug 27 2015 6:12 AM In reply to

    • hbrock
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    Re: What Hard Drive to get for 4K Editing?

    What are you shooting on?  What's the format of the media that the camera is generating?  What's the final output?  Where's the finished project going to be seen?  If you can give us some specifics of what you'll be working with and what you need to end up with we can provide more credible answers.

    Media Composer has 4 different 4K codecs of differing quality and there is no camera that records those formats natively so you're going to need to transcode your footage.  Depending on the recording format your camera is using, some 4K codecs may be more appropriate than others in regards to storage size, quality and performance.

    And just to make things more complicated, there are some performance issues with 12-core Mac Pros running Yosemite when transcoding media using Media Composer.  Hopefullly that will be fixed soon.

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  • Thu, Aug 27 2015 12:30 PM In reply to

    • persyst
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    Re: What Hard Drive to get for 4K Editing?

    Shooting on:
    Panasonic GH4

    Shooting Format:
    C4K 4096x2160, H.264

    Transcode Format:
    DNXHR HQX

    Final Output:
    C4K for the bigscreen

    I actually had the Apple Store install Mavericks to avoid any transcoding problems.

     

    Thanks for any help!

    Media Composer 2019.6 Pro Tools 2019.6 Mac Pro 2013, MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.7GHz 12-core with 30MB of L3 cache • 64GB (4x16GB) of 1866MHz DDR3... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Aug 27 2015 11:58 PM In reply to

    • hbrock
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    Re: What Hard Drive to get for 4K Editing?

    Some things to be aware of...

    1.  The camera will record 4K internally at h.264 8-bit 4:2:0.  Think of this as Regular grade gasoline.  For an economy car.

    2.  DNXHR HQX is a 10-bit format at a much higher data rate than your recording format can achieve.  Bigger in this case is not necessarilly better.  This is the equivalent of putting High Octane gas in your economy car.  No harm, but no gain and the cost is substantial and you get no benefit.  The only time to use DNXHR HQX might be on the final rendered output when you've applied color correction and want the benefit of rendering 8-bit sources into a 10-bit codec.  No benefit from the source material (that was lost in the camera) but you can maybe minimize any further banding issues by rendering to a higher bit rate.

    3.  DNXHR SQ would be a better match for your source material.  If you want a higher data rate, use DNXHR HQ which is a 8-bit codec rather than HQX which is the 10-bit version as you don't have any data to put in those extra 2-bits and the higher compression rate to stuff those 2 empty bits into the codec would be useless.  We're back to Regular gasoline.  Why is it so much bigger than what comes out of the camera?  Because it's using a compression scheme that compresses each individual frame rather than a group of pictures (GOP) so although it's larger it's much more suitable for editing purposes.  You don't want to try to edit h.264 4K for more than a day.  Really, you don't.

    4.  The camera records only at 24.00 fps when in 4096x2160 mode.  The frame rate difference will need to be accounted for when exporting to standard video devices that expect 23.98 fps.  You can sync 48k audio to either frame rate but any conversion after the sound is married to the picture will require a sample rate conversion if the frame rate is changed for any reason.  24.00 fps is great for the big screen.  For everything else, there's 23.98 fps and you can always convert from one to the other at the end.

    If you want to edit in 4K you'll need a Thunderbolt RAID drive capable of 500 Mb/s (that's megabits per second, if you want megabytes or MB/s divide by 8) for DNXHR SQ or 750 Mb/s for DNXHR HQ.  That means 207 GB/hr for DNXHR SQ or 316 GB/hr for DNXHR HQ.  In other words, you'll get about 15 hours of 4K DNXHR SQ media on a 3 TB drive or a little under 10 hours if you use DNXHR HQ.  Estimate the amount of source media you expect ot have and you'll have an idea of how much storage you'll need.  Add about 20% to whatever you calculate for renders and to make sure the drive has some free space as the project gets close to finishing.  The bigger the RAID the better the protection. If you get a larger RAID that supports RAID 3 or RAID 5 or 6 it's always going to be safer to get your media onto another set of drives otherwise you're skating on thin ice.  Or, as you might discover, editing in HD and then finishing in 4K has some appeal in terms of storage, performance, cost and efficiencies.  But if you've only got 5 hours of material to work with (I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the finished project is a short), 4K is a viable choice but you're going to need either SSDs or a lot of spinning disks (i.e. a RAID with at least 5 drives) to get the bandwidth you'll need.

    Probably way more than you asked.  BTW, nothing wrong with the GH-4, but it's not a RED or Sony 4K cinema camera or a Arri Alexa but some of those codec choices are more appropriate for the type of material you can get from a camear that costs 50x more than a GH-4 so it's best to find the best match for your needs. 

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  • Fri, Aug 28 2015 3:00 AM In reply to

    • persyst
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    Re: What Hard Drive to get for 4K Editing?

    Thanks for the feedback I definitely get the gasoline analogy. Very good transcoding tip. Great to know the data transfer rate of DNXHR SQ and DNXHR HQ, are those rates listed somewhere? Also what is the main difference between DNXHR HQX and DNXHR 444, or when would I use one or the other? Could you please clarify what you mean by a  "safer to get your media onto another set of drives"? Do you mean using the RAID5 drive as a working drive, but backing it up onto a seperate drive?

    Yes the 5 hours of footage is just me testing different shots. By any chance would you know, ballpark, how much raw footage I could expect to end up with at the end of a lo/no budget 2hr feature film?

    Thanks again for the info!!

    Media Composer 2019.6 Pro Tools 2019.6 Mac Pro 2013, MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.7GHz 12-core with 30MB of L3 cache • 64GB (4x16GB) of 1866MHz DDR3... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Aug 28 2015 5:40 AM In reply to

    • hbrock
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    Re: What Hard Drive to get for 4K Editing?

    For data rates for DNXHR do a search in the box up there in the upper right hand corner.  Short version: 4K is a little bit more than 4x HD.  So DNXHD 175 becomes DNXHR HQ 723 or something like that.  

    Always best to have 2 copies of your media.  Preferably in differnt locations.  Helps prevent data loss due to meteor showers or alien invasions.

    DNXHR 444 is more bits, more color samples, more everything.  If you're shooting Avatar, it's handy.  For your situation it's like taking a Formula 1 car to the supermarket.  Waaaaaay more power than you need.

    Lowest ratio for a feature: 3:1 if you're John Ford or Willam Claxton (but they're no longer working).  Or you're Ed Wood (look it up if you don't know).  Figure 7:1 or 10:1 for a scripted feature if you're careful and have planned things out well and don't second guess and are the first person to think their dailies are wonderful.

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  • Fri, Aug 28 2015 11:05 PM In reply to

    • persyst
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    Re: What Hard Drive to get for 4K Editing?

    Great info on the 444 codec. Haha and thank you for the raw footage ballpark, vey funny. Didn't realize the ratio could be upto around 10:1, so definitely good to keep that in mind.

    Thanks again! 

    Media Composer 2019.6 Pro Tools 2019.6 Mac Pro 2013, MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.7GHz 12-core with 30MB of L3 cache • 64GB (4x16GB) of 1866MHz DDR3... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Sep 1 2015 7:12 PM In reply to

    • persyst
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    Re: What Hard Drive to get for 4K Editing?

    Based on this page Avid spec page: 

    http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/white_paper/DNxHR-Codec-Bandwidth-Specifications

    DNxHR HQ  Tranfer rate = 88.88 MB/s = 88.88 Mega Bytes/second

    From my calculations, is it correct that any of these drives below would allow me to edit smoothly in 4k?

     

    Thanks for any more help!!!!

    RAW FOOTAGE CALC

    C4K @ 24p, 100 Mbit/s 100 Mbit/s x 1 byte/8bit = 12.5 MB/s 12.5 MB/s x 60 s/min = 750 MB/min 750 MB/min x 60 min/hr  x 1GB/1000MB  =  45 GB/hr

    Estimated RAW FOOTAGE Space Requirement

    2 hr (final feature length) x 10 (estimated shot footage) = 20 hours x 45 GB/hr = 900 GB 

    Transcoded Footage

    DNxHR HQ Transfer Rate: 88.88 MB/s 88.88 MB/s x 60 s/min x 60 min/hr/ x 1GB/1000 MB = 319.97 GB/hr  319.97 GB/hr x 20 hours x 1TB/1000GB = 6.4 TB

    DRIVE CHOICES
     
    Listed in Mega Bytes/second  
    1. PROMISE Pegasus2 R6 12TB, RAID 5, 600 MB/s @ $2099
    2. PROMISE Pegasus2 R6 18TB, RAID 5, 600 MB/s @ $2400
    3. PROMISE Pegasus2 R8 24TB, RAID 5, 800 MB/s @ $2700
    4. G-Tech G-Speed Studio 16TB RAID 0, 660 MB/s @ $2200 
    5. G-Tech G-Speed Studio 24TB RAID 0, 660 MB/s @$2900
    6. G-Tech G-Speed Studio XL 24TB RAID 5, 1175 MB/s @ $3000
    7. G-Tech G-Speed Studio XL 32TB RAID 5, 1175 MB/s @ $4000
    Media Composer 2019.6 Pro Tools 2019.6 Mac Pro 2013, MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.7GHz 12-core with 30MB of L3 cache • 64GB (4x16GB) of 1866MHz DDR3... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Sep 1 2015 11:55 PM In reply to

    • hbrock
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    Re: What Hard Drive to get for 4K Editing?

    "Edit smoothly in 4K" is an aquired taste.  Give it a try first and see if it seems smooth enough for your purposes.  

    Note that the RAID 0 drives won't have any protection if a drive fails.  That would be very bad.  RAID 5 drives are about 10% slower but because they're protected that makes them 100% cheaper than 2 sets of RAID 0 drives.

    Figure that you'll need at least two streams of full bandwidth throughput to play a timeline without having to render everything or 88.88 MB/s x 2 or almost 200 MB/s minimum.  Also, add 20-50% more capacity than you think you'll need to handle renders, imports and exports and to ensure that you don't fill the drive past 90% capacity as that's where things sometimes get wonky.  Any of those proposed drives should be fine in terms of capacity but...

    10:1 ratio is both admirable and optimistic.  Sh*t happens.

    To test the viabliity of this plan, try doing a test using the internal flash storage on the Mac Pro as it's of similar speed capability, albeit with limited capacity.

    Good luck!  Let us know what you discover.

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  • Fri, Sep 11 2015 12:39 PM In reply to

    • persyst
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    Re: What Hard Drive to get for 4K Editing?

    Thank you again for the informative an comedic reply. Testing sounds like a good way to go. I will reply back with which drives I test out and compare against the internal T1TB SSD.

    Media Composer 2019.6 Pro Tools 2019.6 Mac Pro 2013, MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.7GHz 12-core with 30MB of L3 cache • 64GB (4x16GB) of 1866MHz DDR3... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Sep 17 2015 1:35 PM In reply to

    • persyst
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    Re: What Hard Drive to get for 4K Editing?

    Hi hbrock,

    I'll be testing a G-RAID and Promise in a few days but, do you happen to know why I'm getting choppy playback of 4K DNxHR LB clips in my timeline with Proxy: Off and Timeline Playback quality set to Full (the all green box)? These timeline mxf files are on my internal 1 TB SSD and the AJA tester says the read/write transfer rates are around 1000 MB/s. The drive is filled about half way, 500 gigs.

    Thanks!

    My comp is a Mac Pro 2013:

    • 2.7GHz 12-core with 30MB of L3 cache
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    • 1TB PCIe-based flash storage
    • Dual AMD FirePro D700 GPUs with 6GB of GDDR5 VRAM

    Media Composer 2019.6 Pro Tools 2019.6 Mac Pro 2013, MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.7GHz 12-core with 30MB of L3 cache • 64GB (4x16GB) of 1866MHz DDR3... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Sep 19 2015 10:11 PM In reply to

    • hbrock
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    Re: What Hard Drive to get for 4K Editing?

    Since you made a new post regarding this, I responded there. 

    MacPro, MacBook Pro and a Cube (masquerading as a kleenex dispenser). [view my complete system specs]

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  • Tue, Sep 22 2015 3:28 AM In reply to

    • persyst
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    Re: What Hard Drive to get for 4K Editing?

    Hi hbrock!

     

    RAID Results:

    Here's what I tested:

    - Playback of a 4K, 4 minute sequence
    - Clips Transcoded to DNxHR HQ,

    - Total size for transcoded clips was about 70GB (not sure if this is important) 

    - No transitions just a lot of cuts

    - Proxy Off

    - Video Quality Tested at Full Screen: Full Quality 10bit (green box +10bit), Full Quality (green box), Draft Quality (green/yellow) and Best Performance.



    RAID Drives used for testing sequence playback:

    PROMISE Pegasus2 R6 18TB, RAID 5, 6 Drives x 3TB
    AJA Test Results @ Video Frame Size 4096x2160 10-bit RGB, File Size 4.0 GB:
    Write: 861.6 MB/s
    Read: 863.8 MB/s

    G-Tech G-Speed Studio 24TB RAID 5, 4 Drives x 6TB
    AJA Test Results @ Video Frame Size 4096x2160 10-bit RGB, File Size 4.0 GB:

    Write: 529.1 MB/s
    Read: 468.5 MB/s

    Results
     
    The G-Tech playback at:
      - Best Performance (yellow box): Super Smooth. It felt like watching the smoothness of a DVD or movie at the theater.

    - Draft Quality (green/yellow box): Looked pretty darn close to the smoothness of Best Performance, too close for me to see a difference in smoothness.
    - Full Quality 10bit (green box +10bit): Looked VERY SMOOTH!!Yes, no distracting stutters. Maybe just the tiniest bit short of the super smoothness of Best Performance (yellow box). Any lag that is there is the least bit noticeable. To work at this resolution all the time would totally be worth sacrificing the lag, non-factoring lag, compared to Draft or Best Performance. Like I said it's so NOT distracting.

    - Full Quality (green box): Strangely the playback was the worst of all of them, noticeable lagging! How is this possible when 10 bit playback looked AWESOME??  

    With the exception of Full Quality which seemed to be the worst, I'd like to screen cap/record my full screen playback at the various 3 other settings and overlay them with each other to see how much of a lag there actually is between them, because they all looked soooo close to each other in terms of smoothness when comparing in succession.  

    The Promise Drive Playback:
    Playback was distractingly CHOPPY!!! at Full Quality 10bit (green box +10bit) and Full Quality (green box), and would only play smooth at Draft Quality (green/yellow box), and Best Performance (yellow box). How is it possible the the G-Tech drive played WAAAY better than the Promise drive, especially since the AJA Test showed better speeds on the Promise Drive? Is it simply because it's a larger capacity? I thought that since the Promise has more physical drives, that would have made it faster, providing at least an equally smooth if not smoother playback than the G-Tech.

    Wrap Up:
    I was hoping to make a final purchase decision and go with the Promise Drive, because I figured I'm not going to blow through 18TB so fast, but now that I see how much better the MC playback performance is with the more expensive/larger G-Tech, I'm definitely leaning that way. Is it even worth testing a 24TB Promise to be on an equal playing field?
    How is it possible the the G-Tech perfomed amazing even though the AJA Test speeds were slower than the Promise drive?

    Thanks for any more incite!!
    Media Composer 2019.6 Pro Tools 2019.6 Mac Pro 2013, MacOS High Sierra 10.13.6 • 2.7GHz 12-core with 30MB of L3 cache • 64GB (4x16GB) of 1866MHz DDR3... [view my complete system specs]
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