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  • Fri, Oct 24 2014 1:00 PM

    different fps in same project/sync sound and video with different fps

    Hi,

    I have some generall questions, regarding my new project. Thanks in advance for reading and helping me to understand these issues.

    1. my project was shot on two different cameras and two different FPS: Sony PMW-F3 - 23.976 fps, Sony Alpha A7S - 25fps.
    I read here and in this wikidoc (https://wikis.utexas.edu/display/comm/AVID+-+Mixing+Frame+Rates+in+Same+Project) how to bring the different materials together into the same project, by AMA and then Transcode. this is not the problem, this is OK.

    So, as a consequence, my timeline is going to include some 25fps clips and some 23.976 clips.
    isn't it going to cause some problems in the future? any kind of problems?

    the project will be onlined on Adobe Premiere.

    2. all the sound files was recorded seperately 25fps.
    I intend to sync it in the Avid.

    Is there going to be a problem to sync a 23.976fps video with a 25fps sound file?

    I am using Avid MC6 on Windows 7.

    Thanks,
    Eilat

     

  • Fri, Oct 24 2014 8:40 PM In reply to

    Re: different fps in same project/sync sound and video with different fps

    Yes, you will run into trouble. 23.976/24/25 do not mix well. MC will let you mix them, but it won't look great, simply because these conversions are particularly hard to do. Most common is not to mix them, but either pull the sources up or down to one common frame rate. This is not what MC lets you do that easily. 

    You mention sound recorded at 25fps, but sound only has a sample rate, not a frame rate. It can have a timecode type stamped, but it does not relate to actual speed. Sound is recorded in actual real time, regardless of the speed the camera runs.

    Bottom line: they should not have mixed these rates. If I were you, I'd try to pull up the 23.976 to 24.000 and pull down the 25 to 24, then work at 24.000, because both these conversions are calculable for sound.

    I think Adobe PPro has an option to "Interpret As", which lets you change the frame rate up or down. MC does have ways to do that with QT sources, but not with any other sources. You probably need to do such a conversion before you bring the footage into MC.

    Sound would then also needs to be adjusted. You can use Wave Agent to restamp the sample rate of the sound files before bringing them into MC. Check 24p.com for the actual conversion rates.

     

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  • Fri, Oct 24 2014 8:56 PM In reply to

    Re: different fps in same project/sync sound and video with different fps

    Hey,

    Thank you for the detailed answer!

    Job ter Burg:
    If I were you, I'd try to pull up the 23.976 to 24.000 and pull down the 25 to 24, then work at 24.000, because both these conversions are calculable for sound.

    Why not pull up the 23.976 to 25 and that's it? It sounds easier.  (maybe I didn't understand the second part of the sentence).

  • Fri, Oct 24 2014 9:24 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: different fps in same project/sync sound and video with different fps

    Eilat Ben Eliyahu~:

    the project will be onlined on Adobe Premiere.

    I am curious as to why you will online in Premiere after an offline in Avid?

    My concern is issues of getting the project from Avid to Premiere (not any anti-Premiere stuff). 

    Jef

     

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  • Sat, Oct 25 2014 8:52 AM In reply to

    Re: different fps in same project/sync sound and video with different fps

    It is simple :)

    the photographer is going to do the colors/online for free, and he is used to work only on Premiere.
    as far as I know, it is possible and done in many projects.

  • Sat, Oct 25 2014 8:56 AM In reply to

    Re: different fps in same project/sync sound and video with different fps

    I suggested pullimg to 24 because you can pull up audio from 23.976 to 24 more easily than from 23.976 to 25, because 23.976 divided by 25.000 is far from an integer number.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Oct 25 2014 9:01 AM In reply to

    Re: different fps in same project/sync sound and video with different fps

    returning to my initial question about mixing 23.976 and 25 fps in same timeline, 
    could you please tell me what kind of problems it might cause?

    I really want to understand it, beyond the practical use of this specific project.

  • Sat, Oct 25 2014 9:34 AM In reply to

    Re: different fps in same project/sync sound and video with different fps

    The answer is your final output has to be just one framerate.

    So any soruces that don't match the output framerate have to be made to match.

    MC will don this with motion adpaters and some convert better than others.

    As others have siad MC will do it but not really at finishing quality. You wills ee blending etc.

    Some folks use MC to do the offline to get an idea for the cut and then convert the framerates of the required shots using external processes.

    Also like others I'd question the jump from Avid to premiere. I suspect you will find issues here. Free is only free if it works...

    I'dconsider going to reslve for finishing or stay with MC.

    Do you have an actual process to send to Premiere? I suspect the method will be a flaterned file output and that taken into premiere. That can work but it's very restrictive and you lose all your timeline info.

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  • Sat, Oct 25 2014 10:32 AM In reply to

    Re: different fps in same project/sync sound and video with different fps

    Pat Horridge:

    Some folks use MC to do the offline to get an idea for the cut and then convert the framerates of the required shots using external processes.

    Still, I would strongly recommend against 23/24/25 conversions other than speed changes (which MC does not let you do easily nor conveniently). Interpolations _will_ cause motion stutters. 

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  • Sat, Oct 25 2014 2:21 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: different fps in same project/sync sound and video with different fps

    Job ter Burg:

    Pat Horridge:

    Some folks use MC to do the offline to get an idea for the cut and then convert the framerates of the required shots using external processes.

    Still, I would strongly recommend against 23/24/25 conversions other than speed changes (which MC does not let you do easily nor conveniently). Interpolations _will_ cause motion stutters. 

    I will offer a slightly different opinion than Job's side comment.  I feel that Avid's ability to handle speed changes (assuming the clips correctly recieved Motion Adapters when loaded) IS convenient.  But with two big exceptions: 1. You have a large number of clips you wish to modify.  Then it is a tedious, clip by clip procedure.  2. The material has sync sound.  Then the process is even more tedious and complicated.  These may be what Job speaks to.

    As to interpolations, I agree.  There are many different tools and techniques for converting frame rate.  Each shot may need a different approach and have different final results.  To achieve high quality outcomes can be very time consuming (expensive) and may never be perfect.

    Good luck,

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." mostly 8.12.9|OS 10.14.x - iMac Pro 2019 - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown"... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Sat, Oct 25 2014 4:00 PM In reply to

    Re: different fps in same project/sync sound and video with different fps

    Jef, it is convenient if you want to maintain duration — which for conversions between 23p/24p/25p/30p is usually a bad idea. If you prefer to change duration and maintain a frame-by-frame speed change, MC offers close to no solution for that, other than for individual clips, only from the timeline, and ignoring sync sound. Again, I know that in After Effects, you csn simply tell it to "interpret as" and speed up or slow down a clip. 

    By now I am answering this type of 23/24/25 conversion questions at least twice a month, so I dare to say Avid should more easily allow for framerate manipulation (not just interpolation, and not just from the timeline), and — not unimportant — it should let you let us adjust audio to match.

    Mix&match is US broadcast-centric, it makes sense when you have 23.976p sources in 29.97i projects. It doesn't really need to do anything when mixing 25p clips in 50i projects. What it does when you mix 23/24/25p sources in Progressive projects is that it defaults to maintaining duration, which is hardly ever the way one would want this to be done, as it generally means quality loss.

    Should people be shooting at multiple progressive frame rates? Not in my humble opinion, but it is safe to say that it is happening anyhow, so why not enable us to fix mistakes like that more easily?

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  • Sat, Oct 25 2014 9:56 PM In reply to

    • jwrl
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    Re: different fps in same project/sync sound and video with different fps

    Job ter Burg:
    Should people be shooting at multiple progressive frame rates? Not in my humble opinion, but it is safe to say that it is happening anyhow, so why not enable us to fix mistakes like that more easily?
    Got my vote!
    Job ter Burg:
    I know that in After Effects, you csn simply tell it to "interpret as" and speed up or slow down a clip.
    One of the things that I'm using AE for more and more is just that sort of issue.

    A very clunky workaround if you have a small number of clips to deal with: let's assume you have one or two 23.98 clips you want to include in a 25 fps project.  You know roughly how much of each clip you need.  Create a project just for them, and export each as TIFF/TGA/PNG sequences.  Import those sequences into your 25 fps project.  The video will now run at 25 fps with a direct frame-for-frame match at the slight cost of an additional transcode.

    You will still need to handle audio separately, and it really isn't appropriate for large amounts of media, but it can help.

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  • Sun, Oct 26 2014 1:24 PM In reply to

    Re: different fps in same project/sync sound and video with different fps

    hey, thanks for the answers and the discussion!
    I understand now why it is better to covert the files before bringing them into avid.

    (I do have to sync sound, and it is a big amount of clips, something like 150.) 

    I have started to check the best way to convert. I found a nice program called Cinec which can convert both ways (23.976 to 25 and vice versa). but, how can I know if the program is making a speed-change, or is duplicating/deleting frames?

    another question,
    isn't it best to convert 25 to 23.976, which means substracting a frame, than converting 23.976 to 25, which means adding a frame (from nowhere)?

    I'm sorry if these questions are too basic. I suppose the imformation is avaliable somewhere in the web... so I'll be glad to read other sources as well if you can redirect me.

  • Sun, Oct 26 2014 1:45 PM In reply to

    Re: different fps in same project/sync sound and video with different fps

    Eilat Ben Eliyahu:
    I found a nice program called Cinec which can convert both ways (23.976 to 25 and vice versa). but, how can I know if the program is making a speed-change, or is duplicating/deleting frames?
    Well, do a test with some obvious motion in it (long left-right pan or something crossing the screen), bring it into MC and see if you see any duplicated or skipped frames.

    Eilat Ben Eliyahu:
    isn't it best to convert 25 to 23.976, which means substracting a frame, than converting 23.976 to 25, which means adding a frame (from nowhere)?
    No, on average, both these options will look equally terrible, although one may look better on some shots than the other, depending on the motion and the frame skipped or added.

    Again, if you do a speed conversion (changing the duration) no frames are skipped nor duplicated, a frame stays a frame. Very much like shooting undercranked or overcranked, when the camera is running, say, 100fps, and you play back frame by frame at, say, 25fps.

    Have you thought about how you are going to get your sound in sync after the change from 23.976 to 25.000? I think you might be able to pull it off in one go if you restamp the sample rate of the audio files from 48000Hz to 50050Hz, then import with a Sample Rate conversion to 48K. But I'm not sure.

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  • Sun, Oct 26 2014 8:04 PM In reply to

    Re: different fps in same project/sync sound and video with different fps

    Ok, thanx, 

    as for the sound - no, I haven't thought about it :) what do you mean by " restamp the sample rate of the audio files from 48000Hz to 50050Hz "? in which program/software?

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