Latest post Thu, Jul 14 2011 8:20 AM by Job ter Burg. 113 replies.
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  • Mon, Jul 11 2011 12:30 PM In reply to

    Re: A month of zero results from Tech Support

    tho_wi:
    You would expect that it looks different VISUALLY

    Sorry, I thought that's what you meant when you said it "changed the display values."  My misunderstanding.

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  • Mon, Jul 11 2011 8:11 PM In reply to

    Re: A month of zero results from Tech Support

    I have to say that I am with Scott on this one (not that anyone who's posted in this thread against the idea of having QT's from Avid look correct when played in Quicktime Player).

    Some of us know more of the technical details than others, but none of us seem to know all of them well enough to adequately defend the current state of affairs when it comes to MC and QT export.

    MC quite simply needs a way to reliably export to QT. QT has become a delivery format nowadays. This is a reality. The other reality is that QT exports from FCP and CS5.5 generally look correct when played in QT Player.

    The final reality is that QT exports from MC 5.5 generally don't look correct when played in QTP. For MC users who rely on QT output, this is quite simply unacceptable. And sitting on our hands and blaming Apple gets us nowhere. B/c if that's the end of the story, then the final chapter ends by saying MC can't properly export to QT while CS5.5 and FCP_ can. That is a very sad conclusion for Avid.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Mon, Jul 11 2011 8:32 PM In reply to

    Re: A month of zero results from Tech Support

    BobbyMurcerFan:

    I have to say that I am with Scott on this one (not that anyone who's posted in this thread against the idea of having QT's from Avid look correct when played in Quicktime Player).

    Some of us know more of the technical details than others, but none of us seem to know all of them well enough to adequately defend the current state of affairs when it comes to MC and QT export.

    MC quite simply needs a way to reliably export to QT. QT has become a delivery format nowadays. This is a reality. The other reality is that QT exports from FCP and CS5.5 generally look correct when played in QT Player.

    The final reality is that QT exports from MC 5.5 generally don't look correct when played in QTP. For MC users who rely on QT output, this is quite simply unacceptable. And sitting on our hands and blaming Apple gets us nowhere. B/c if that's the end of the story, then the final chapter ends by saying MC can't properly export to QT while CS5.5 and FCP_ can. That is a very sad conclusion for Avid.

    Isn't the reason Avid QT exports look "wrong" or washed out in QT player that Avid offers the option to export at 601 levels?

    For "proper" post digital work content should be managed in the 601 "domain" and it makes no sense to re-map to RGB levels and then back to 601 inside the next app down the line.

    However many apps seem to not understand 601 and assume levels are RGB (as does QT player)

    I guess Avid could just export everything as RGB re-mapped levels and expect all imports to be RGB levels and just deal with 601 levels as an internal process. That would help and in the world of "only needs to be for TV" is possibly enough.

    I discovered long ago that using 601 between Avids worked great for the rest RGB is safer.

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  • Mon, Jul 11 2011 8:35 PM In reply to

    • hbrock
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    Re: A month of zero results from Tech Support

    The instance of CS 5.5 and FCP working properly applies to ProRes specifically.  For every other codec out there, it's a can of worms.  There are multiple H264 codecs that behave differently despite adhering to the same "standard".  QT gamma is a black hole that needs some illumination.  it would be great to find out who turned out the lights so we don't all have to be in the dark.

    MacPro, MacBook Pro and a Cube (masquerading as a kleenex dispenser). [view my complete system specs]

    Must think of something clever to go here...

  • Mon, Jul 11 2011 8:54 PM In reply to

    Re: A month of zero results from Tech Support

    Pat Horridge:
    Isn't the reason Avid QT exports look "wrong" or washed out in QT player that Avid offers the option to export at 601 levels?
    No. See earlier in the thread, where I linked to an H264 example at 709 out and 709 in. It is about codecs changing the gamma. Most notable, QT gamma display settings resulting in exports/imports have the wrong color values.

    Pat Horridge:
    I guess Avid could just export everything as RGB re-mapped levels and expect all imports to be RGB levels and just deal with 601 levels as an internal process.
    No it wouldn't help, as you would not be able to export any values under 16 or over 235, which is pretty devastating if you're exporting stuff to color correction.

    Pat Horridge:
    I discovered long ago that using 601 between Avids worked great for the rest RGB is safer.
    That rule of thumb is pretty far off. RGB hardly ever makes sense, other than when exporting for web or desktop use. See here why and how.

    But even more so: this is not about any of that. It is about QT gamma issues. That Avid exports may suffer from when using certain codecs (ProRes, H264 and even DV-PAL currently).

    I sincerely hope Apple and Avid are working together on finding a solution to this issue.
    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jul 11 2011 9:25 PM In reply to

    Re: A month of zero results from Tech Support

    Belle-nuit FAIL.

    I have been through dozens and dozens of permutations, using the Belle-nuit pattern and Avid internal scopes, and have not found ANY combinations of export settings and AMA source settings, including using DNxHD, that maintain a 0-255 signal through roundtrip.  In every single case, one of these occurred:

    The overall contrast grade was maintained, but superwhite and superblack information was clipped to yield a 16-235 signal.

    The overall contrast grade was expanded, yielding a clipped and unnaturally contrasty signal

    The overall contrast grade was reduced, squeezing the entire test pattern into 16-235.

    I'm not stupid, I have read the whitepaper (diligently, repeatedly), and I assure you I know how to read scopes and numbered swatches on a test pattern.  The problem is not limited to ProRes and/or Quicktime Player.  It is GLOBAL.  The whitepaper, incidentally, is less than optimal, as it does not even mention AMA, and makes the assumption (p7) that contrastier = nicer, even when the recommended process clips some of the image information and expands the remainder unnaturally, yielding a harsh and unpleasant look.

     

    I give up.

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  • Mon, Jul 11 2011 9:39 PM In reply to

    Re: A month of zero results from Tech Support

    scott auerbach:
    The whitepaper
    Apparently you are apparently referring to my 'whitepaper'.
    scott auerbach:
    have not found ANY combinations of export settings and AMA source settings, including using DNxHD, that maintain a 0-255 signal through roundtrip
    I just tried it and it works. On my PC, the Mac is at home. Linked AMA to the Testchart.tif (with the default unchanged levels). Exported as DNxHD 709. Linked AMA to the exported MOV (with the default unchanged levels). All have the full 0-255 range, including superwhites and superblacks. Compared it to traditional import/export/import. Same black and white values.
    I have read the whitepaper (diligently, repeatedly)
    Sorry, but I have to doubt that based on what you write:
    scott auerbach:
    The whitepaper, incidentally, is less than optimal, as it does not even mention AMA
    It wasn't written to explain AMA, it was written to explain the two different settings when using 'traditional' Avid import/export (as is clearly stated in the introduction). And it was written in my own free unpaid time, I might add, Scott. Made to help out others. (I'm not an Avid employee; moderators here are plain vanilla users that volunteer to do some household chores on these forums). That doesn't mean it should be wrong or inaccurate, but none of your criticism bares any relevance. The document IS accurate and correct.

    I'll add a note about AMA when I find the time.
    scott auerbach:
    makes the assumption (p7) that contrastier = nicer,
    It clearly states 'nicer', with quotation marks. Also, that section does not RECOMMEND that setting, it simply tries to explain what's happening with the two different settings. It's not a 'how-to' but an explanation of the two different import settings.
    scott auerbach:
    the recommended process
    Again, it is NOT the recommended process. The whole point of the paper is that it tries to explain that RGB exports will clip levels. So that ONLY works if your sources are 709-legal. Again, Avid is a 709-based application.

    My recommendation would be, as stated earlier, to produce and finish in 709 (which is the worldwide video standard), then apply some form of correction when exporting for desktop or web. When exporting from Avid, you can use RGB as long as what you are exporting is absolutely 709-legal. If not, export as 709, and use an external encoding app to do a LUT from 709 to RGB.
    I give up.
    Come on, dude.
    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jul 11 2011 9:40 PM In reply to

    • tho_wi
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Mon, May 23 2011
    • Posts 53
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    Re: A month of zero results from Tech Support

    scott auerbach:
    Belle-nuit FAIL.
    not here.

    Avid should rename the settings.

    rec709 on import and export should be called: "no remapping" or "preserve levels"

    RGB on import should be called: compress luminance range to TV levels

    RGB on export should be called: expand luminance range to computer levels

     

    So... once you've expanded your tv levels to RGB levels on export you have to set the import setting to rec709 for a re-import of that file. It then will show the correct levels. and vice versa.

    Likewise: if you want to import a file that contains RGB levels from the very beginning and you want to preserve these RGB levels ... import with the setting "rec709" (= "no remapping applied").

     

    MC 6.5.3 & 7.0 . Matrox Mini . OS X 10.8.4 . 8x2.26GHz Nehalem . 24GB RAM . Radeon HD 5870 [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jul 11 2011 10:19 PM In reply to

    Re: A month of zero results from Tech Support

    there's TWO places you have to choose 709 on DNx export, or it works wrong.

    **slowly puts gun to head and squeezes trigger**

    On the other hand, it still doesn't work with uncompressed 8bit  601... unless there's another double-button situation.

    Or DVCProHD 601.

    2.7 GHz iMac Intel Core i5, 20GB RAM, G-Tech eSpeed RAIDs, AJA ioXT, ATTO Thunderlink, RED Rocket accelerator [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jul 11 2011 10:21 PM In reply to

    Re: A month of zero results from Tech Support

    Put down the gun and stop swearing (the latter is against the terms of use of these forums).

    Instead, open my document. Read it, and repeat each and every step in it with the same test files. All that information is right there.

    Page one says: I’d recommend reading the ‘RGB’ and ‘601/709’ options as follows: IMPORT: • RGB: Remap 0-255 levels over 16-235 video (blacks lifted, whites reduced) • 601/709: Do not remap (keep levels as they are) EXPORT: • RGB: Take whatever lives between 16-235 and remap to 0-255 (blacks lowered, whites brightened) • 601/709: Do not remap (keep levels as they are) Note that if you are using the Avid Quicktime codec in Quicktime Pro or other applications, that you also get the choice between ‘RGB’ and ‘601/709’. There, it has the same meaning as in the IMPORT situation described above. To gain some insight on what is happening, it can be useful to do the following tests.

    By the way, if you do a Same-As-Source export, you don't need to set 709/RGB in the Quicktime part of the export settings, as it won't apply.
    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jul 11 2011 10:28 PM In reply to

    Re: A month of zero results from Tech Support

    It works on conventional import... my issue has always been with AMA.  Sorry about the slip-of-the-lip.

    ///

     

    Yup, have re-done a bunch of the tests... it definitely doesn't work for most codecs in AMA.  So unless there's some hidden AMA setting that nobody's told me about, AMA behaves entirely differently than import.  I'm exporting Belle-nuit in 601/709 space, then either re-importing it with unchanged levels, or AMA-linking with Do Not Modify levels.  Completely different results between the two methods.

    2.7 GHz iMac Intel Core i5, 20GB RAM, G-Tech eSpeed RAIDs, AJA ioXT, ATTO Thunderlink, RED Rocket accelerator [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jul 11 2011 10:30 PM In reply to

    Re: A month of zero results from Tech Support

    scott auerbach:

    it still doesn't work with uncompressed 8bit  601... unless there's another double-button situation.

    Or DVCProHD 601.

    I'm betting these are the Apple versions of these codecs, right? Or even BlackMagic's?
    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jul 11 2011 10:31 PM In reply to

    Re: A month of zero results from Tech Support

    scott auerbach:
    It works on conventional import... my issue has always been with AMA
    I've just performed the basic tests with AMA, and it works the same here. The Source settings, with a different nomenclature, do the exact same thing.
    Sorry about the slip-of-the-lip.
    I don't think a slip-of-the-lip was the problem.

    P.S. Tried to send you an email, but you don't accept forum emails, apparently.
    I'm exporting Belle-nuit in 601/709 space
    But: to which codec?

    Again, my point is: there are codecs that won't let us export unmodified levels. The Apple ones being prominent.
    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jul 11 2011 10:43 PM In reply to

    Re: A month of zero results from Tech Support

    Will change those settiings tonight -- have to run now.

    As I just edited in an earlier post, I've run through a whole bunch of codecs, and they don't behave right in AMA.  As for which codecs Avid is looking at, I haven't a clue.

    Will try to spend more time on this tomorrow.  After that, I'm on shoots for a week. Thanks

    2.7 GHz iMac Intel Core i5, 20GB RAM, G-Tech eSpeed RAIDs, AJA ioXT, ATTO Thunderlink, RED Rocket accelerator [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jul 11 2011 10:44 PM In reply to

    Re: A month of zero results from Tech Support

    scott auerbach:
    I've run through a whole bunch of codecs
    BMD and Apple, likely.
    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
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