tho_wi:You would expect that it looks different VISUALLY
Sorry, I thought that's what you meant when you said it "changed the display values." My misunderstanding.
I have to say that I am with Scott on this one (not that anyone who's posted in this thread against the idea of having QT's from Avid look correct when played in Quicktime Player).
Some of us know more of the technical details than others, but none of us seem to know all of them well enough to adequately defend the current state of affairs when it comes to MC and QT export.
MC quite simply needs a way to reliably export to QT. QT has become a delivery format nowadays. This is a reality. The other reality is that QT exports from FCP and CS5.5 generally look correct when played in QT Player.
The final reality is that QT exports from MC 5.5 generally don't look correct when played in QTP. For MC users who rely on QT output, this is quite simply unacceptable. And sitting on our hands and blaming Apple gets us nowhere. B/c if that's the end of the story, then the final chapter ends by saying MC can't properly export to QT while CS5.5 and FCP_ can. That is a very sad conclusion for Avid.
"When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric
BobbyMurcerFan: I have to say that I am with Scott on this one (not that anyone who's posted in this thread against the idea of having QT's from Avid look correct when played in Quicktime Player). Some of us know more of the technical details than others, but none of us seem to know all of them well enough to adequately defend the current state of affairs when it comes to MC and QT export. MC quite simply needs a way to reliably export to QT. QT has become a delivery format nowadays. This is a reality. The other reality is that QT exports from FCP and CS5.5 generally look correct when played in QT Player. The final reality is that QT exports from MC 5.5 generally don't look correct when played in QTP. For MC users who rely on QT output, this is quite simply unacceptable. And sitting on our hands and blaming Apple gets us nowhere. B/c if that's the end of the story, then the final chapter ends by saying MC can't properly export to QT while CS5.5 and FCP_ can. That is a very sad conclusion for Avid.
Isn't the reason Avid QT exports look "wrong" or washed out in QT player that Avid offers the option to export at 601 levels?
For "proper" post digital work content should be managed in the 601 "domain" and it makes no sense to re-map to RGB levels and then back to 601 inside the next app down the line.
However many apps seem to not understand 601 and assume levels are RGB (as does QT player)
I guess Avid could just export everything as RGB re-mapped levels and expect all imports to be RGB levels and just deal with 601 levels as an internal process. That would help and in the world of "only needs to be for TV" is possibly enough.
I discovered long ago that using 601 between Avids worked great for the rest RGB is safer.
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The instance of CS 5.5 and FCP working properly applies to ProRes specifically. For every other codec out there, it's a can of worms. There are multiple H264 codecs that behave differently despite adhering to the same "standard". QT gamma is a black hole that needs some illumination. it would be great to find out who turned out the lights so we don't all have to be in the dark.
Must think of something clever to go here...
Pat Horridge:Isn't the reason Avid QT exports look "wrong" or washed out in QT player that Avid offers the option to export at 601 levels?
Pat Horridge:I guess Avid could just export everything as RGB re-mapped levels and expect all imports to be RGB levels and just deal with 601 levels as an internal process.
Pat Horridge:I discovered long ago that using 601 between Avids worked great for the rest RGB is safer.
Belle-nuit FAIL.
I have been through dozens and dozens of permutations, using the Belle-nuit pattern and Avid internal scopes, and have not found ANY combinations of export settings and AMA source settings, including using DNxHD, that maintain a 0-255 signal through roundtrip. In every single case, one of these occurred:
The overall contrast grade was maintained, but superwhite and superblack information was clipped to yield a 16-235 signal.
The overall contrast grade was expanded, yielding a clipped and unnaturally contrasty signal
The overall contrast grade was reduced, squeezing the entire test pattern into 16-235.
I'm not stupid, I have read the whitepaper (diligently, repeatedly), and I assure you I know how to read scopes and numbered swatches on a test pattern. The problem is not limited to ProRes and/or Quicktime Player. It is GLOBAL. The whitepaper, incidentally, is less than optimal, as it does not even mention AMA, and makes the assumption (p7) that contrastier = nicer, even when the recommended process clips some of the image information and expands the remainder unnaturally, yielding a harsh and unpleasant look.
I give up.
scott auerbach:The whitepaper
scott auerbach:have not found ANY combinations of export settings and AMA source settings, including using DNxHD, that maintain a 0-255 signal through roundtrip
I have read the whitepaper (diligently, repeatedly)
scott auerbach: The whitepaper, incidentally, is less than optimal, as it does not even mention AMA
scott auerbach:makes the assumption (p7) that contrastier = nicer,
scott auerbach:the recommended process
scott auerbach:Belle-nuit FAIL.
Avid should rename the settings.
rec709 on import and export should be called: "no remapping" or "preserve levels"
RGB on import should be called: compress luminance range to TV levels
RGB on export should be called: expand luminance range to computer levels
So... once you've expanded your tv levels to RGB levels on export you have to set the import setting to rec709 for a re-import of that file. It then will show the correct levels. and vice versa.
Likewise: if you want to import a file that contains RGB levels from the very beginning and you want to preserve these RGB levels ... import with the setting "rec709" (= "no remapping applied").
there's TWO places you have to choose 709 on DNx export, or it works wrong.
**slowly puts gun to head and squeezes trigger**
On the other hand, it still doesn't work with uncompressed 8bit 601... unless there's another double-button situation.
Or DVCProHD 601.
It works on conventional import... my issue has always been with AMA. Sorry about the slip-of-the-lip.
///
Yup, have re-done a bunch of the tests... it definitely doesn't work for most codecs in AMA. So unless there's some hidden AMA setting that nobody's told me about, AMA behaves entirely differently than import. I'm exporting Belle-nuit in 601/709 space, then either re-importing it with unchanged levels, or AMA-linking with Do Not Modify levels. Completely different results between the two methods.
scott auerbach:it still doesn't work with uncompressed 8bit 601... unless there's another double-button situation. Or DVCProHD 601.
it still doesn't work with uncompressed 8bit 601... unless there's another double-button situation.
scott auerbach:It works on conventional import... my issue has always been with AMA.
Sorry about the slip-of-the-lip.
I'm exporting Belle-nuit in 601/709 space
Will change those settiings tonight -- have to run now.
As I just edited in an earlier post, I've run through a whole bunch of codecs, and they don't behave right in AMA. As for which codecs Avid is looking at, I haven't a clue.
Will try to spend more time on this tomorrow. After that, I'm on shoots for a week. Thanks
scott auerbach:I've run through a whole bunch of codecs
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