Hi Job:

Job ter Burg:

I don't think embedded TC is supported, only RS422 (when using deck control) or through the timecode input. Best option would be to route through something that reads the TC from the HDSDI and can slave to it and output a TC channel. Like a deck.

…..Really ? This is rather surprising for a broadcast device which originally retailed for approximately $32,000.00 US I think the DNxHD upgrade board was around $16K ?? One would have thought embedded timecode in the HD-SDI was standard. Most current HD and SD decks support embedded TC signal in the HD-SDI stream this is part of the SMPTE 292 HD-SDI standard. I will have to get a confirmation on this point. If indeed this is so, then I would very surprised.

Job ter Burg:

In the other thread I referred to, it specifically stated that 96K is NOT supported with embedded audio. So if 96K audio is your goal (not sure why), you will need to feed audio over AES and video over SDI, and deselect the embedded audio in Avid.

…I want to be able to set my MC HD Project to do 96KHz 24 bit audio, but capture all HD-SDI video with its regular 48 KHz 24 bit embedded audio. Can I not mix or transcode audio sample rates within a 96 KHz audio project ?

Job ter Burg:

So how's your sync setup?

….My sync is setup as *Internal* on the Adrenaline HD and *Internal* on the Flash XDR output. Both picture and audio are fantastic quality in test captures I have made. Very stable video images.

…R U positive the Adrenaline Hd does not support embedded TC signal within the HD-SDI stream ? This is a standard feature on all SD and HD VTR's I am aware of.

Mark Job 

Mark Job:

This is a standard feature on all SD and HD VTR's

A I said most of this is above my head but every camera and Deck with HD SDI out I have seen has also had a dedicated TC out not to mention TC on the RS 422 connection.

Inexpensive file based devices (often) do not. However importing files from most of them do give you TC (of some form)

As I said my quick research showed many NLE's do not support it. To the extent that in a FCS forum it was stated that the poster only believed Some AJA cards to be capable of stripping out the TC from HD SDI but that the contacted person at AJA hasd said that it would not work as FCS did not support it. That post was late 2009 5 years after Adrenaline was released and also after DX Nitris, the Adrenaline replacement had been released.

As a workaround I would capture with Avids default TOD timecode and then go back and modify the clips TC to match the Flash drives.  (backtime from the TC at the first camera cut to establish the clips offset)

Mark Job:

R U positive the Adrenaline Hd does not support embedded TC signal within the HD-SDI stream ?

99% sure.

I don't recall ever seeing a setting that would allow for TC capture from HD-SDI. If you're using a controlled deck, TC is taken from the RS422. If you're not using a controlled deck, the TC input is used.

I'd love to stand corrected, but I doubt it.

 

I have no clue about the ability to mix 96K with 48K. But first try to disable SDI-embedded audio and see if you can get to 96K. That's what you were after, right? If it works, try and capture 24/48 over SDI, then flip to 96 and see what happens.

Hi Job:

Job ter Burg:

99% sure.

I don't recall ever seeing a setting that would allow for TC capture from HD-SDI.

…This is absurd. Most all broadcast VTR's I'm aware of over the last decade have had the embedded TC feature in the SDI - HD-SDI output stream. I'm aware of feeding the LTC via separate output and VITC via the RS-422 control interface. I still keep an old Panasonic AG 7750 Record/Edit Super VHS/VHS VTR in perfect working order (Remember those VTR's ?) around just so I'm still able to read that format. You'd be surprised who walks in with a bunch of old S-VHS masters occasionally, who asks for the material transferred and labelled over to DVD. The old AG 7750 has a wonderful built in full field TBC and TC generator/reader which will pick up either VITC or LTC, or generate TC from a control track signal.  

Job ter Burg:

I have no clue about the ability to mix 96K with 48K. But first try to disable SDI-embedded audio and see if you can get to 96K. That's what you were after, right?

…I tried disabling SDI-embedded audio to see if I could then set 96 KHz audio, but no such selection pops up in the drop down list. Is there some special *extra* setting I have to select in order to get this feature to be selectable ? The whole 96KHz thing is a complete mystery to me.

I'm also still searching for a device which can read the embedded TC in the HD-SDI signal and strip it off and output it via LTC. In the case of my Canon HDV camcorder, it does have a separate TC output which can be fed directly to the Adrenaline's LTC input separately. The original 2005 version of the XL H1 does not embed the TC signal in the HD-SDI output, while the XL H1*s* version does. I will test this with a recorded Canon 24F format HDV tape and see what happens during capture in a 23.976p project with the Adrenaline.

Mark Job        

 

Mark Job:

This is absurd. Most all broadcast VTR's I'm aware of over the last decade have had the embedded TC feature in the SDI - HD-SDI output stream.

Most NLE's - AFAIK - use the TC data from the RS422, and they don't really capture the TC, but rather stamp the incoming TC for the first frame of signal they capture, then store that as metadata for the clip/file, rather than as a track.

Mark Job:

The whole 96KHz thing is a complete mystery to me.

On my Nitris DX on 5.5, the 96K option is in the Audio Project settings. Did you make sure to set all the inputs to AES and not (HD)SDI?

P.S.: where is your 96K source material coming from?

Hi Job:

Job ter Burg:

Most NLE's - AFAIK - use the TC data from the RS422, and they don't really capture the TC, but rather stamp the incoming TC for the first frame of signal they capture, then store that as metadata for the clip/file, rather than as a track.

…..Huh ? How does that work ? R U saying the NLE re-creates the *correct source* TC from the time stamp on the first frame of incoming LTC and video ?

Job ter Burg:

On my Nitris DX on 5.5, the 96K option is in the Audio Project settings. Did you make sure to set all the inputs to AES and not (HD)SDI?

….When I switch off from embedded HD-SDI audio to analogue Hi-Z unbalanced line in, I still do not see the 96KHz selectable option in the Audio Project settings. I am re-testing this now by actually plugging in the Analogue Audio in Snake to the audio board in the Adrenaline and in turn hooking that up to my Canon XL H1 camcorder so that I can perform an in - camera 24F HDV tape playback and take my video out of the camera via HD-SDI, my Audio from the camera's analogue RCA outputs, and my TC from the source tape from the camera's TC output to the Adrenaline's balanced LTC 3 pin input. Now, I also have another unanswered question about the *PIN wiring configuration* of the 3 pin balanced LTC input - **Is it identical to the standard pin configuration of 3 pin balanced North American Audio ???** If not, then I could blow one of the Adrenaline's boards along with my camera's TC output !!

I keep searching the Avid knowledge base looking for more specific information like wiring diagrams of specific inputs, like the LTC input on the Adrenaline, and, as usual, coming up empty ! Why is it that whenever one has to attempt any form of communication intercourse between this company and the end user, it has to be an agony and a frustration ?! I searched long enough for this information through the Avid Knowledge base. Experience has taught me to be very careful plugging in XLR cables wired for balanced audio into non-audio inputs.

Job ter Burg:

P.S.: where is your 96K source material coming from?

…From my camcorder's analogue unbalanced 16 bit 48 KHz outputs. I don't like 48 Khz 16 bit audio. This is insufficient for high quality digital audio acquisition in my opinion. 24 bit samples at 48 KHz or 96 KHz is much better for audio editing and mixing. 48 KHz 16 bit audio is a delivery format.

Mark Job

 

Mark Job:

R U saying the NLE re-creates the *correct source* TC from the time stamp on the first frame of incoming LTC and video ?

Yes, TC is not being captured. Makes no sense to do it. They go into preroll, then stamp the TC at the start of the capture. During the capture, the TC is being monitored, and as soon as there is a TC jump, the capture will finish. The resulting clip has a start TC value, and from that start TC value, the TC for the entire clip is deduced.

Used to be an issue in the DigiBeta and HDCAM days, as these 1/2 inch camcorders sometimes make tiny TC gaps that go unnoticed by the NLE's, which creates continuous clips that are not continuous, therefore calculating the wrong TC, which would cause errors when batch capturing sequences cut from those clips.

Mark Job:

Is it identical to the standard pin configuration of 3 pin balanced North American Audio ?

The TC input is just an audio signal, so yes. And I don't see how you could blow this port with an audio signal.

Mark Job:

From my camcorder's analogue unbalanced 16 bit 48 KHz outputs.

Increasing the bit depth has some use when you mix low level stuff. Upping the clock makes no sense to me.

 

 

Hi Job:

            I'm absolutely pulling my hair out over a real catch - 22 situation here with the great difficulty of getting the source TC signal into the Adrenaline from either my Solid State Digital Recorder/Player VTR, or directly capturing from my Canon XL H1 HDV camcorder's outputs ! This is getting ridiculous now !

1. I can capture the source TC from direct HDV camera tape via the Adrenaline's LTC input, as well as analogue audio from the XL H1, but I cannot capture the Video from the camera, because the camera puts out a progressive signal instead of a Progressive Segmented Frame signal via its HD-SDI output, thus the Adrenaline won't accept the video input ! = CHECKMATE !

2. I can capture embedded audio and video via the HD-SDI input from my solid state digital video VTR, but the Adrenaline won't decode the embedded TC signal in the HD-SDI stream, and my SSDR does not output TC via a separate LTC or RS-422 output. = CHECKMATE AGAIN !!

3. When I select Analogue Unbalanced Audio input I can then capture good quality sound into the Adrenaline, but how come I cannot select 96 KHz audio ?

I'm really starting to loose my patience and get quite pissed off and frustrated at this point ! The only possibility I can see is to find some kind of little black box HD-SDI TC De-Embedder device capable of striping off the embedded TC signal and outputting this via a separate LTC output ! I'm still left with some basic unanswered questions about the Adrenaline configuration, which I cannot find answers to in the Avid Knowledge Base.

A) If there is no embedded HD-SDI TC capture capability with the Adrenaline, then why is there a selection in Settings>Media Creation>Capture Tab> Enable Ancillary Time Code (ATC) ?

B) When I capture audio through an Analogue input, then why can't I set the audio project to 96 KHz ?

C) Does the Avid Nitris DX I/O hardware box allow for HD-SDI Embedded TC Capture ?

Mark Job

 

RANT WARNING !:

Hi Editors: I will endeavour to make this as short as possible. I've been doing some research and I am astonished to report the Adrenaline's replacement - The Nitris DX, also does NOT possess the ability to read HD-SDI embedded TC signal !! I consider this a major oversight on the part of Avid. There are many, many tape based and solid state digital HD recorder/players who embed the TC signal within the HD-SDI output. This is not *strange, or odd ball functionality.* A google or two produces a not exhaustible short list of HD Digital decks which embed TC in the HD-SDI output and input….

1. Convergent Design's Flash XDR, Nano Flash, Gemini.

2. The Cinedeck Extreme.

3.. Canon HDV camcorders, including the XL H1s . 

I certainly do like the quality of my Adrenaline's realtime hardware DNxHD encoder. To my eye, when played back on my Sony broadcast HD monitor, the hardware encoded DNxHD looks a little better than if I transcode it the long software render way. (Even DNxHd 36 looks surprisingly clean for an off line grade codec)

* I may have found a device which will de-embed the HD-SDI TC signal and route it to a separate LTC balanced output. This would allow me to capture source TC from my SSDR. The device is made by MIRANDA and you can check out what I mean by following the proceeding link - http://www.inviso.com/images/prd_downloads/HD-Bridge_DEC+.en.pdf

Mark Job