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  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 7:37 AM In reply to

    Re: We need a roadmap for Symphony - please add your vote

    luca.mg:
    (a bunch of) foolish enough people

    Source based CC and secondary CC are rather crucial to some folks. That's not foolish, that's reality to them.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 7:51 AM In reply to

    • blafarm
    • Top 500 Contributor
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    Re: We need a roadmap for Symphony - please add your vote

    TCurren:
    How much more can you develop an editing platform? Some of the new toolsets, like Phrase Find are pretty state of the art, don't you think?

    No disrespect intended, but I don't really think a brand new tool like "Phrase Find" -- which hasn't even been released and which will cost $495 above base price -- represents a valid argument that supports the premise of "How much more can you develop an editing platform?".

    You are absolutely correct -- "Phrase Find" sounds like a wonderful tool.  But what about all of the other features that have largely NOT been improved or refined for over the past 10 years -- and which seem frozen in some sort of time capsule?  

    I would be doing the OP of this thread a dishonor by "detouring" this topic by listing the litany of issues that thousands of users have been complaining about for over a decade.  So, suffice it to say, like many other Avid editors, I find myself apologizing to clients and making excuses for shortcomings of MC software on a weekly basis.  And, with more work these days being "onlined" (so to speak) in the box -- the pain and embarrassment are even more excruciating (for both them -- and me).

    I recognize and admire the fact that Avid is in the process of "turning a new leaf" -- and I'm thrilled that I am still around to benefit from those changes.  I can also imagine that it is not easy to shift and fix the direction of a large company -- and overcome strategic mistakes possibly made by previous administrations.

    However, to suggest that there is nothing more to develop in MC / Symphony ("How much more can you develop an editing platform") -- and that "Phrase Find" (which was developed by Nexidia -- and not Avid) is some sort of symbolic representation of state-of-the-art Avid innovation -- is to ignore all of the other antiquated tools which are dragging both of these editing platforms down.

    To the OP's credit, this thread is really about requesting a Symphony roadmap.  And, my only point is that I believe MC and Symphony should be consolidated, Symphony owners should somehow be "made whole" for their increased investments -- and Avid should consider taking the best technology they have at their disposal -- and transform the surviving product into a truly "best of bread" editing platform that can compete with the other products in the marketplace -- both now and in the future.  

    In my opinion, which I realize you may not share, a ten year old "Advanced Color Correction" feature and "Universal Mastering" --  seem hardly valid differentiators for a product that commands the Symphony cost premium. In light of the principle competition, who is not saddled with this illogical vertical product delineation, desperately holding on to Symphony seems to have failure written all over it.   

    It's easier said than done -- I know -- but that was my only point. 

     

  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 7:51 AM In reply to

    • luca.mg
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    Re: We need a roadmap for Symphony - please add your vote

    @ Job: Of course they are, like Universal mastering is, but You know that the price is wrong, or foolish! And I know that You know what I mean.

    Symphony 20.06, BM Intensity Pro 4k, Windows 10, i7-5930K, 32 GB ram, Quadro K620 [view my complete system specs]

    peace luca

  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 8:17 AM In reply to

    Re: We need a roadmap for Symphony - please add your vote

    Logically MC and Symphony should just merge and become one product.

    I've never met anyone (but I'm sure there must be a few) that need or use Universal Mastering and that could (and should) just be an option.

    But MC colour correction is held back by Symphony needing to be better to charge more bucks.

    One product with chargeable options.

    But it's unlikely to happen. Bigger facilities can also charge an extra premium for a Symphony over an MC and the extra cost from Avid is multiplied up for them in charges to clients and while there are that will pay the extra for Symphony Avid will I'm sure sell it to them.

    A road map would be great but as it's direction is impossible to predict as it's at the mercy of other products in the market, Technology changes and developments and working practices a map could cause more problems than it solves.

     But at least fix some of the many underlying flaws.

    Multitrack QT exports. Greater than 2GB AVI exports. FCP Sequence imports. And more......

     

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

    Broadcast & Post Production Consultant / Trainer  Avid Certified Instructor VET

     

    QC/QAR Training - Understanding Digital Media - Advanced Files * Compression - Avid Ingest - PSE fixing courses and more

    All bespoke and delivered onsite at yours. Or delivered via hosted Zoom session.

     

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  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 8:40 AM In reply to

    Re: We need a roadmap for Symphony - please add your vote

    Those contributing, please specify if you own or use Symphony. All input on the discussion is appreciated, but it may help keep things clear.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 9:06 AM In reply to

    • DylanReeve
    • Top 50 Contributor
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    • Auckland, New Zealand
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    • Moderator: MCA Mac
      Moderator: MCA PC

    Re: We need a roadmap for Symphony - please add your vote

    I agree with what seems to be the majority opinion - the points of difference for Symphony now aren't really enough.

    Our online suite is a Symphony Nitris DX, and to be honest we wouldn't miss much if we went to Media Composer. Universal Mastering isn't relevant for us, the secondary correction in Symphony is not up to par so we barely use it. The only loss would be source-based correction.

    I've pondered this in the past. I think that either Symphony needs to add a bunch new features or cease to exist basically. And I find it very hard to imagine what those features could be, frankly.

    If I were running Avid's video division, I would collapse Symphony's features into Media Composer (and improve the colour correction by adding SpectraMatte and AniMatte to the colour correction toolset). And I would then focus on two products for professional post-production - Media Composer and DS. They are truely different products.

    Various systems - including HP Z440 and Z840 workstations Media Composer 2018 [view my complete system specs]

    Dylan Reeve - Edit Geek // Online/Offline Editor // Post Production Supervisor
    Auckland, New Zealand

     

  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 10:36 AM In reply to

    • Haze
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    Re: We need a roadmap for Symphony - please add your vote

    blafarm:
    Symphony owners should somehow be "made whole" for their increased investments

    Sure.  They could give current Symphony owners one of those key rings with a little led flashlight on it along with a hallmark card that said "Sorry for devaluing your investment here's a tiny flashlight to brighten your day".

    Avid DS 11 | Z800, Symphony 6.5 | HP xw 8600, MC 6.5 | HP Z400, Unity Storage [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 10:40 AM In reply to

    • Wouter Jansen
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    Re: We need a roadmap for Symphony - please add your vote

    Job ter Burg:

    If anything is going to happen, Avid, let us know. Otherwise we're all better off downgrading to MC.

    +1

    MC 7.0.4.3 w/Symphony option on Z800 Win7Pro64 | MC 7.0.4.3 w/Intensity Pro on XW8600 Win7Pro64 | MC 7.0.4.3 on MacBook Pro OSX 10.6.7 | SansDigital EliteSTOR... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 12:02 PM In reply to

    • switthaus
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    Re: We need a roadmap for Symphony - please add your vote

    blafarm:
    Symphony owners should somehow be "made whole" for their increased investments

    Sadly, thats just not gonna happen.  Maybe a free year of support and a year of MC upgrades, but in the tradition of this business, someone always gets burned in transitional situations like this (theoretically speaking, of course).

    Scott Witthaus

    Owner/Editor/Post Production Supervisor 1708 Editorial

    http://vimeopro.com/1708editorial/1708-editorial

  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 12:04 PM In reply to

    Re: We need a roadmap for Symphony - please add your vote

    I'm afraid Scott is right. All the more reason for owners to to force Avid to decide what the future is going to look like. Otherwise it will just be a few more rounds of extra costs for Symphony owners before it gets dropped.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 3:07 PM In reply to

    • TCurren
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    Re: We need a roadmap for Symphony - please add your vote

    blafarm:
    In my opinion, which I realize you may not share, a ten year old "Advanced Color Correction" feature and "Universal Mastering" --  seem hardly valid differentiators for a product that commands the Symphony cost premium.

     

    I don't disagree with you. But this has nothing to do with Avid not developing enough on the entire platform. They went through a lot of years of stagnation, and the last few years they have been trying to play catch-up. But they really are too far behind, and that hurts them.

     

    The lack of development in Symphony vs. MC is testament to the share of market there is for each platform in Avid land. What company would starve a star product? Which means Symphony isn't the star product.

     

    As for asking for a roadmap, even if they have one, (which they obviously must) they are not allowed to share it publicly. You can only guess where they are going, and we aren't allowed to do that in this forum.

    Symphony Nitris Classic, Symphony DX, MC Soft, MC Adrenaline, MC Adrenaline HD, Unity, Terrablock, ProTools [view my complete system specs]

    Terence Curren Alpha Dogs, Inc.

    Burbank, Ca

    www.alphadogs.tv

    www.digitalservicestation.com

    www.editorslounge.com

  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 3:16 PM In reply to

    Re: We need a roadmap for Symphony - please add your vote

    TCurren:
    As for asking for a roadmap, even if they have one, (which they obviously must) they are not allowed to share it publicly.

    Depends on the details, I bet.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 6:58 PM In reply to

    • C.A.M.
    • Not Ranked
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    Re: We need a roadmap for Symphony - please add your vote

    TCurren:

    I am one of the biggest complainers about Avid dragging their feet on Symphony advancement over the years. That said...

     

    How much more can you develop an editing platform?

    Umm. A LOT!!!

    The problem is not a lack of features, it is the quality, usability and results of those features.

    Symphony's so called "advanced" color corrector is a prime example of ham fisted tools which produce lack luster results. The secondary color corrector is very poor at pulling and refining selections ,compared to other secondary color correctors. Likewise are selections through highlights, mid-tones and shadows. Curve adjustments can hardly be surgical due to the inability to scale the interface or make nuanced adjustments. Same with color wheels. Output quality is also an issue as banding, flat field artifacting, clay face, and the like all seem to happen much quicker within Composer's tools than what I have seen in Smoke, DS, Color and other environments. You really can't solve the hard problems or push corrections very far. 

    So those are limitations with already introduced color features which are not up to par in my opinion. From there we can add noise reduction, built in garbage masking, no still store and additional secondaries (which are useless unless we can get more refined selections).

    This is also the crown jewel of Symphony. A year 2000 tool which is better than nothing but far from any sort of leading edge tool set that produces results similar to other industry leading "finishing" tools. 

    Ditto for the DVE or any tools which reposition or scale images (even scale images smaller). The tools are there. They just don't work well. We are still dealing with an inability to place an image with sub-pixel accuracy and must deal with softness, ringing and other problems when simply repositioning or scaling a logo or bug. Heaven forbid you actually would like to animated this over time in an interlaced format. The DVE doesn't produce professional results.

    Then we can talk about features that need to be added to the DVE like soft shadows or some ability to deal with pre-multiplied alpha material. The whole effects architecture is challenged by a mid 1990s framework that severely cripples track to track, layer to layer, effect to effect flexibility. Advanced key-framing feels like working with boxing gloves on compared to key-framing in AE, DS, FCP, PREMIERE and others. 

    Spectramatte is an ok keyer which could use improvement but a more pressing issue is it being completely hobbled by Avid's remedial effects architecture, namely the ability to pass alpha from layer to layer. This makes post key color correction impossible in a practical sense. Garbage masking can be done in a heavy handed fashion but watch out for interlace artifacts and glitches when using Animatte in combination. 

    Which brings us to Animatte and Paint. Suffering the same fate as the color corrector. Never updated, never refined, can't even be used for something as simple as a vignette without banding, halo-ing or other issues. Forget sharp edges too. Compare its output to the Sapphire Vignette effect. Dust busting and image correction tools circa 1998.

    Title tool. Nuff said. 

    This list goes on and on.

    And that is before we get to SEVERE performance related issues and the need for industry leading, quickest to market, support for new popular formats like RED, ArriRaw and ProRes.

    BTW, There is a reason DNXHD is not an industry standard like ProRes. It is an interesting commentary on who really leads and innovates or at least who the market sees as such. However, that is for another thread.

    Once you work around all the above with plug ins and etc. Symphony looses ALL REAL TIME PERFORMANCE and becomes nothing special. Just like Composer. Sure it is slightly better than Composer but that is like saying a Ford Pinto is better than taking the bus.

    As for the vote. We presently own three Symphonys. A classic nitris, and 2 Nitris DX boxes. In the past we have owned 2 Meridian Symphonys.

    So mark me down as 

    +5

    We would like to know what Avid has planned. 

     

     

     

     

     

     

    Symphony Nitris DX, Composer Nitris DX, MC Soft [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 7:18 PM In reply to

    Re: We need a roadmap for Symphony - please add your vote

    C.A.Magid:
    DNXHD is not an industry standard like ProRes.

    One of the things that crack my brain. ProRes is not as available nor as flexible as DNx. For one, you can't create any ProRes on Windows machines. That, to me, is so 1992.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Feb 20 2011 7:36 PM In reply to

    • TCurren
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    Re: We need a roadmap for Symphony - please add your vote

    But DNxHD has a paid license. I don't think that's the case with ProRes.

    Symphony Nitris Classic, Symphony DX, MC Soft, MC Adrenaline, MC Adrenaline HD, Unity, Terrablock, ProTools [view my complete system specs]

    Terence Curren Alpha Dogs, Inc.

    Burbank, Ca

    www.alphadogs.tv

    www.digitalservicestation.com

    www.editorslounge.com

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