Latest post Sat, Feb 19 2011 4:43 PM by Pat Horridge. 10 replies.
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  • Mon, Feb 14 2011 4:14 PM

    • daktulus
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    How do get clean gradient graphic? With Marquee I see steps

    Mc 4.05 DVCPROHD project on Dell M90 all certified.

    I try to get a clean circular gradient in a DVCPROHD 4:2:2 8bit (1440x1080) project.

    It just doesn´t work. The graphics I import from Photoshop and AE show steps, even when I create a gradient in Marquee, I see steps. Is there a trick to dither the steps?

    Blur filter doesn´t work, makes it worse.

     

     

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  • Tue, Feb 15 2011 3:20 AM In reply to

    • Cagey
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    Re: How do get clean gradient graphic? With Marquee I see steps

    4:2:2 is 10-bit.  Try a 10-bit project setting.  Make sure you are in green mode, or better green(10) mode.

    What are your settings in AE?

    I have been able to create 10-bit graphics in AE, import into MC, and export back to AE while maintaining 10-bit.  However everything appears as 8-bit in MC.

    (With the number of posts you have I feel like I should be asking you questions.)

     

    Keith

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  • Tue, Feb 15 2011 2:02 PM In reply to

    • daktulus
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    Re: How do get clean gradient graphic? With Marquee I see steps

    4:2:2 DVCPROHD 1440x1080 is not 10bit. In AE you can only switch between 8 and 16bit. The export as YUV 10bit (Mac) can´t be played back on my Avid system (XP). Do you know which codec I would need?

    AVC-Intra100 1920x1080 would be 10bit. Are all MC4 1920x1080 projects 10bit?

    As far as I know simply switching to 10bit is not possible in MC 4.05, or is it?

    i7, Nvidia 860M, 16GB RAM, 500GB SSD, MC 7.03. Dell Precision M90, Core2Duo 2.16Ghz, FX1500, SATA 7200rpm, MC 4.05. Dell650, 2.8Ghz, 3 GB RAM, FX500, 5... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Feb 15 2011 2:37 PM In reply to

    • daktulus
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    Re: How do get clean gradient graphic? With Marquee I see steps

    I created a gradient in a MC4 1920x1080 project 16bit rendering in media creation. In Marquee I don´t see steps, but when I import/save it into MC4 I see steps in gradient. As DNXHD185 and AVC-I100. I´m in full green mode.

    Can anyone create a gradient in Marquee in dark green/blue, with the round gradient spreading all over the picture? Is it possible at all without steps?

     

     

     

     

    i7, Nvidia 860M, 16GB RAM, 500GB SSD, MC 7.03. Dell Precision M90, Core2Duo 2.16Ghz, FX1500, SATA 7200rpm, MC 4.05. Dell650, 2.8Ghz, 3 GB RAM, FX500, 5... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Feb 16 2011 1:48 AM In reply to

    • Cagey
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    Re: How do get clean gradient graphic? With Marquee I see steps

    How Avid displays footage and how it stores it can be different.  If you import using one of the DNxHD codec settings with an X, you are importing into a 10-bit container.  If Avid can discern 10-bit values from the source then it will keep them instead of truncating them.  However it will display at 8-bit and even in CC will show 8-bit values.  But if you export same as source and check inside AE for example, you will once again see 10-bit values.  So even though you see steps inside MC, once you output your footage you will have 10-bit. 

    I'm really hoping that this issue of not being able to see 10-bit footage correctly in MC is resolved soon. 

    As I understand it 4:2:0 is 8-bit, 4:2:2 is 10-bit, and 4:4:4 is 14-bit.

    Keith

    MC8.6.1, Z420 Xeon E5-2670, 32GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1080, DIGI002, Win 10 Pro 64-bit [view my complete system specs]

    There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those that get binary, and those that don't.

  • Wed, Feb 16 2011 12:07 PM In reply to

    • daktulus
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    Re: How do get clean gradient graphic? With Marquee I see steps

    4:2:2 can be 8bit as in DVCPROHD and 10bit as in AVC-Intra100.

    Have you tried to create a round Marquee gradient? Is it perfectly clean (no small steps/circles)? I think it is not possible.

    2nd problem: after exporting e.g. for internet in a smaller size, steps are clearly seen.

     

    i7, Nvidia 860M, 16GB RAM, 500GB SSD, MC 7.03. Dell Precision M90, Core2Duo 2.16Ghz, FX1500, SATA 7200rpm, MC 4.05. Dell650, 2.8Ghz, 3 GB RAM, FX500, 5... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Feb 16 2011 7:00 PM In reply to

    Re: How do get clean gradient graphic? With Marquee I see steps

    Spent a lot of time trying to get 10bit content into MC with DNX 185x and I suspect all routes in are 8bit stripped.

    As the end display is unlikely to be 10bit even if you do get MC to display it OK (most displays are 8 bit) it will band at some point later down the chain.

    The solution was to add noise to the content to break up the gradient. If you get it right it will be almost invisible and the banding will vanish.

     

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

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  • Wed, Feb 16 2011 11:05 PM In reply to

    • daktulus
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    Re: How do get clean gradient graphic? With Marquee I see steps

    Thanx. But this is awful: MC is NOT 10bit after all???

    Which noise filter is most effective within MC?

    Just to make sure: ONLY the DNxHD 185X and 220X are 10bit, normal DNxHD 185 or 220 without the X are never 10bit?

     

     

     

    i7, Nvidia 860M, 16GB RAM, 500GB SSD, MC 7.03. Dell Precision M90, Core2Duo 2.16Ghz, FX1500, SATA 7200rpm, MC 4.05. Dell650, 2.8Ghz, 3 GB RAM, FX500, 5... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Feb 16 2011 11:09 PM In reply to

    • DIESELE
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    Re: How do get clean gradient graphic? With Marquee I see steps

    Pat Horridge:
    As the end display is unlikely to be 10bit even if you do get MC to display it OK (most displays are 8 bit) it will band at some point later down the chain.

    Certainly VERY true of BBC HD on Freesat HD in UK,  Despite being diligent in a 10 bit workflow from start to end and they make us spend all that money on HDCam SR...

    10 bit has nothing to do with 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 - its all to do with your codec flavour not colourspace samplin.

    D

     

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  • Thu, Feb 17 2011 2:36 PM In reply to

    Re: How do get clean gradient graphic? With Marquee I see steps

    daktulus:
    ...even when I create a gradient in Marquee, I see steps. Is there a trick to dither the steps?

    I created a gradient in Marquee to use as a full-screen background.   Once in MC, I smoothed out the gradient by going into color correction and spreading out the Y Waveform by lowering the gamma. 

    MC 2018.12.3 with Symphony, Matrox MX02 Mini Max, Win 7 Pro, HP Z800 2x6-Core 3.2Ghz Xeon, 48GB ram, Quadro K4200, SanDisk Extreme 240GB SSD as system... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Sat, Feb 19 2011 4:43 PM In reply to

    Re: How do get clean gradient graphic? With Marquee I see steps

    daktulus:

    Thanx. But this is awful: MC is NOT 10bit after all???

    Which noise filter is most effective within MC?

    Just to make sure: ONLY the DNxHD 185X and 220X are 10bit, normal DNxHD 185 or 220 without the X are never 10bit?

     I had a job a while back with colour gradient issues and using a Sony HD CRT as the reference monitor we discovered that no flavour of import (8-10-16-24-32 bit sources) produced and noticeable improvement when working in DNX185X I had to conclude that the import process bit stripped to 8 bit.

    We didn't do the noise addition in MC and I'm not sure it would work as well after the banding has been introduced. We did it in AE as we could chose which layers had it and avoid adding it to image elements that didn't need it.

    It take quite a lot of time (and cost) to find the optimum noise additions and it tended to vary with the content.

    But I'm much more aware of very clean gradients now and advise clients to see them on an 8 bit flat screen as soon as possible so they have longer to cry over the end result....

     

     

     

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

    Broadcast & Post Production Consultant / Trainer  Avid Certified Instructor VET

     

    QC/QAR Training - Understanding Digital Media - Advanced Files * Compression - Avid Ingest - PSE fixing courses and more

    All bespoke and delivered onsite at yours. Or delivered via hosted Zoom session.

     

    T 07581 201248 | E pat@vet-training.co.uk | W www.vet-training.co.uk |

     

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