Latest post Wed, Jan 29 2014 2:36 PM by jef. 233 replies.
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  • Mon, Jan 31 2011 6:53 PM In reply to

    Re: RGB & 601/709 Color Space Settings - please check for accuracy

    Here's what happens when I do a roundtrip of color bars through H264:

     

     

     

    Clearly, when keeping the levels 'as they are', H264 has apparently changed the gamma, and the result is a darker image.

    White is a tiny bit darker, midtones are lower, black is illegal.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jan 31 2011 7:05 PM In reply to

    Re: RGB & 601/709 Color Space Settings - please check for accuracy

    Do you export directly from Avid, or use another program to make the H.264, like Sorenson?

    MC 2018.12.3 with Symphony, Matrox MX02 Mini Max, Win 7 Pro, HP Z800 2x6-Core 3.2Ghz Xeon, 48GB ram, Quadro K4200, SanDisk Extreme 240GB SSD as system... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Mon, Jan 31 2011 8:33 PM In reply to

    Re: RGB & 601/709 Color Space Settings - please check for accuracy

    This is straight from Media Composer, File->Export, Quicktime, Custom, and then set H264 Highest Quality, Automatic Data Rate. This particular export was done from a 1080/24p project, frame size kept at 1920x1080.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jan 31 2011 9:47 PM In reply to

    • Cagey
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    Re: RGB & 601/709 Color Space Settings - please check for accuracy

    I tried "send to" to sorenson as rgb export, compressed with MP4/MP4 1Mbps cranked up to 6k, same as source, then reimported as rgb.  Color levels checked out in CC to be virtually that same as the original: 0-235 using 100% color bars. Vectorscope and Y waveform were dead-on.

    Project was 1080p24df

    Keith

    MC8.6.1, Z420 Xeon E5-2670, 32GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1080, DIGI002, Win 10 Pro 64-bit [view my complete system specs]

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  • Mon, Jan 31 2011 10:21 PM In reply to

    Re: RGB & 601/709 Color Space Settings - please check for accuracy

    Cagey:
    MP4/MP4 1Mbps

    Sorensen shows that that option uses the 'Apple AVC' codec. I was talking the H264 codec as chosen from within the Quicktime custom settings (either in MC or in QT Pro).

     

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Feb 1 2011 2:31 AM In reply to

    • Cagey
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    Re: RGB & 601/709 Color Space Settings - please check for accuracy

    Job ter Burg:

    Cagey:
    MP4/MP4 1Mbps

    Sorensen shows that that option uses the 'Apple AVC' codec. I was talking the H264 codec as chosen from within the Quicktime custom settings (either in MC or in QT Pro).

    I'm confused as the codec displayed inside Sorenson does say MainConcept H.264 but it also has a setting for AVC Profile.

     

    Here is the inspector gadget from QT also showing H.264

    Clearly exporting from MC via QT yields different results than Sorenson when creating H.264 files.  Again my only goal is to find the way to achieve the best results as it has been shown how easy it is to screw it up without any clear, concise guidelines coming from Avid.  I gather that Sorenson is not a regular choice for your workflows and that is understandable.  It has easily been for me the most frustrating 3-party app in the box for a long, long time.  But I feel that in some cases it does a good job.  In particular version 6.5 (which is a free update for MC 5.x users) creates flash files with the VP6 Pro codec ( that are amazing in size and image quality) as installed-no additional plugin required.  For me it's definetely the most stable and feature-packed version of Sorenson yet.  It might be worth a second look.

     

    Keith

    MC8.6.1, Z420 Xeon E5-2670, 32GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1080, DIGI002, Win 10 Pro 64-bit [view my complete system specs]

    There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those that get binary, and those that don't.

  • Tue, Feb 1 2011 7:29 AM In reply to

    Re: RGB & 601/709 Color Space Settings - please check for accuracy

    I checked on an older version of Squeeze.

    Thing is, when you use the QT H264 codec, that seems different from when using the MainConcept one.

    The problem is not MC, but the QT H264 codec. That particular encoder I mean. When I export from MC as Ref or Same As Source, and do the H264 conversion in QT Pro, I get the same wrong results as I posted earlier.

    Good to know that using another H264 encoder (Main Concept's one), you get the right results.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Feb 1 2011 5:16 PM In reply to

    • MattB
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    Re: RGB & 601/709 Color Space Settings - please check for accuracy

    Job, you have done a great job of explaining the colourspace issue. I wonder if you could take it one-step further for me.

    I have understood all the 0-255 and 16-235 differences from you excellend pdf. I am in the process of outputting a file for DVD authoring and I want to make sure it is 'legal'. I have now got all the RGB and Y values within the 16-235 range using the CC tool and the project loos lovely, but I still get a warning on the 'composite' (yellow indicator) of the CC warnings indicator and I cant figure out where to correct this (or even why it is there given that all other values appear legal)

    Can you help?

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  • Tue, Feb 1 2011 5:24 PM In reply to

    • cuervo
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    Re: RGB & 601/709 Color Space Settings - please check for accuracy

    The entire discussion of levels pertains to the LUMA values, only. In the RGB/Luma scheme, Luma is calculated from the 3 RGB values. Or, visa versa, if you wish. If you correct BOTH RGB AND LUMA   (i.e. 'Master')you will end up with a washed out picture. As a side note, the way to check your RGB levels is to use the vectorscope, but, that's a different matter.

    As far as the MC warnings, the values at which they give you a warning can be set in the appropriate window that allows setting the warning limits. MC will offer a composite warning if you are off be just a value of 1.0. I tend to disregard these trivial warnings.

    .

    SYS1:ASUS Z97, Haswell 4.0GHz CPU, 32GB RAM, Quadro 4200 + GTX1070, Thunderbolt II -DNxIO-FSI CM171 ///SYS2:ASUS Maximus Extreme V, Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Tue, Feb 1 2011 6:08 PM In reply to

    Re: RGB & 601/709 Color Space Settings - please check for accuracy

    Hi all,

    For the once using Sorenson squeeze 6.5 (like me) and trying to export  (almost) the same gamma values (and chroma values) from the original QT reference as the exported MOV, or MP4 with H.264:

    I made a preset with:

    MainConcept H.264, AVC profile MAIN

    BUT

    with these FILTERS added:

    - CONTRAST: set to -19
    - GAMMA: set to -18
    - HUE SATURATION LIGHTNESS: only SATURATION set to -10

    Now the QTref from avid and the H.264 created in Sorenson (almost) look the same...

    PLEASE NOTE !!!
    to view the correct GAMMA levels in quicktime player...
    go in to quicktime player to Edit>Preferences>Quicktime Preferences>
    in the ADVANCED TAB set video to SAFE MODE!
    Now you see the ACTUAL gamma levels of you MOV or MP4 file...

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  • Tue, Feb 1 2011 7:52 PM In reply to

    Re: RGB & 601/709 Color Space Settings - please check for accuracy

    MattB:
    am in the process of outputting a file for DVD authoring and I want to make sure it is 'legal'.

    How strict you need to be depends on your delivery format. For DVD, I personally wouldn't mind some minor 'illegalities'. For broadcast delivery it is usually more critical. Most color grading facilities I know have a legalizer in their chain, a device that smoothes out the extremes to fit within legal specs without color clipping.

    Avid has a Safe Limiter effect, which I haven't used myself, but that should take care of any irregularities, and supposedly takes into account different maximum levels allowed for different color systems (PAL, NTSC, etc).

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Mar 24 2011 8:50 PM In reply to

    Re: RGB & 601/709 Color Space Settings - please check for accuracy

    ***Ignore***

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Jul 13 2011 7:15 PM In reply to

    • philc4
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    Re: RGB & 601/709 Color Space Settings - please check for accuracy

    This is wonderful THANKS!

    Advice please on workflow for digital file delivery destined for the Web...

    How should After Effects export animation files for use in Avid, allowing for Fast Import?

    Am I thinking correctly that AE exports 709, MC imports 709 fast import, MC exports RGB Same As Source or QT ref which is then converted to file of choice for web delivery (or other file playback such as media servers).

    We generally use Episode Engine for encoding.

    If not going to web would I be correct for same workflow, but MC exports 709?

    Or am I still confused?

    Thanks,

    Phil

     

     

     

    DS Nitris-v10.3_xw8400 MCsoft-v5.5.1_PC MCA-v5.5.1_OS 10.6.6 FCP7 [view my complete system specs]

    Philc

    Day & Night Entertainment,Inc.

  • Thu, Jul 14 2011 7:11 AM In reply to

    Re: RGB & 601/709 Color Space Settings - please check for accuracy

    Pretty sure that an all-709 workflow between AE and MC would be best (I don't use AE that much, but that's the theory), as you would have less unnecessary conversions.

    For web delivery, at some point, you will need to convert from 709 to RGB. Either from Avid, or in your encoding app.
    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Jul 14 2011 3:02 PM In reply to

    • philc4
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    Re: RGB & 601/709 Color Space Settings - please check for accuracy

    Thanks for confirming.

    Phil

    DS Nitris-v10.3_xw8400 MCsoft-v5.5.1_PC MCA-v5.5.1_OS 10.6.6 FCP7 [view my complete system specs]

    Philc

    Day & Night Entertainment,Inc.

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