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  • Sat, Feb 5 2011 8:01 AM In reply to

    • Joe M
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on Sat, Sep 9 2006
    • Southwestern part of US
    • Posts 952
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    Re: MC5 interface settings gone?

    Firefly Studios:

    Mark Job:

    I read this Avid person's response to Larry's concerns in another similar thread and it made me sick to my stomach ! You can read that response here at  http://community.avid.com/forums/p/85356/493161.aspx#493161 

    Yes, that post was quite the gem. I remember reading that at the time, then comparing it to my real-world observations. There was quite a disconnect between the "we beta tested it and people thought it was great" messaging coming from Avid versus the people I know who use it, but weren't beta team members. I haven't found one Avid editor yet who thinks 5.x was a step in the right direction. They continue to lament the features in 4.x that they used often, that 5.x subsequently removed or altered negatively.

    I suppose it's the job of the Avid development management to try and put as positive a spin on the release as possible, but we are a pretty tough audience to "spin", as it is our bread and butter. I have honest hopes that Avid becomes something better with each release. But they really need a crash course in user operations and environments. They need some lessons on interface design and implementation that is far more artistic and functional that where they are going. Right now it feels like the crew building Avid was pulled from a PC geek squad without too much concern for true integration, consistency, or aesthetics... It's not exactly the luxury, best-in-class editing environment they could be. I have no doubt they have reams of papers from countless users that describe in great detail the nagging things that need to be smoothed over. They just need to sit down and do them.

    One of the basic problems with threads of this nature is that it almost always brings into target the negative aspects.  In general, when asked to comment...Complaints are far more likely to show up than praise.  Of course, that's not all bad either... it just needs to be taken into the context of the initial purpose and intent when asking for feedback.  However, expecting more complaints than praise should be expected.

    No doubt there was positive feedback before MC5 was rolled out... but, as you put it... sometimes the real world results don't meet the initial expectations.  In the case of MC5, I really think it has a lot to do with a disconnect between what was planned and what was the net results... plus, what AVID was willing to develop (or could develop relative to the cost)... which to some degree is the biggest disconnect between users and the developers.

    Personally, I think MC5 was a "new" direction... not a good or bad direction (although some might argue that "new" is bad in and of itself).   And, personally I don't even think this "new" direction is that bad of an idea from a long term objective of making AVID more competitive.  Unfortunately, AVID should have had a plan B in place... or better yet,... a plan B built into MC5 from the start.  And. the obvious Plan B would have had a definative way to disable the decisively "new" aspects to MC5 (for example the ST addition).  Why that was not accomplished before MC5 was distributed still leaves me scratching my head.

    At any rate, I see (and has been pointed out many times)... there are numerous other aspects that could have been added to MC5 to make it MUCH more better... but, for some strange (and potential market lossing) reason AVID chose to ignore long term requests for relatively simple changes to MC4.  For example, simply adding a search funtion to it's plug-in bin would have done a LOT toward making MC5 a better upgrade.  Or, perhaps a not so simple time saving background rendering.  There are numerous others examples... that I REALLY hope AVID not only takes notes... BUT... actually implements some of the simplier upgrades into a revision of MC5 at no additional cost.

    MC4 to MC5 is not what I would call the best bang for your buck upgrade... but, has the potential to become a better application if AVID would just work as much on the simple and long requested improvements to it's application as it seems to have spent on certain new tools that were not requested in the first place.  Either way... "new" is a tough sale if "new implimentation" turns into "poor implimentation". 

    WinXP,ASUS W6T6 WS Rev.,Intel i7 3.2Ghz8X32,6G Corsair DDR3(low lat.),Quatro FX 3800(190.38),Adaptec 5405 RAID 0 SAS-2 Stripes 2x15K RPM Fujitsu 300G ea... [view my complete system specs]

    .

  • Sat, Feb 5 2011 1:09 PM In reply to

    • switthaus
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Cobbs Creek, VA
    • Posts 2,260
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    Re: MC5 interface settings gone?

    Mark Job:
    Let Avid just listen to him, and stop making disgustingly rude and arrogant responses to him like Mr. Frank Capria has done a few months back !

    Be careful where you are throwing stones, here.  Frank is a seasoned professional who has been in the editorial trenches and has more experience than most on these forums.  Having sat down to dinner with him and Marianna a couple times, I can also tell you he is a good and passionate guy.  He is direct and does not "spin" his viewpoints.  I would rather have that than Marketing Department "spin" any day.  I think what you take as "arrogant" is really passion and belief in what he does.  

    Is MC5 perfect? Certainly not and never will be.  But through all the BS on this and other threads, we have go most of the bug-fixes  needed in MC5.  Maybe some User Pref options in the future?  That would be nice, and I am sure Frank, Marianna, Todd and the rest have made that request known.  Personally I could care less about Bin colors and such and would rather have Avid focus on a total revamp of how MC handles effects, but that's just me.  But lets not call MC5 a failure (there seems to be a lot of editors working and making a living with it just fine) nor go around insulting a credible and experienced Avid employee when you seem not to know your facts.

    my 2 cents - 

    Scott

    Scott Witthaus

    Owner/Editor/Post Production Supervisor 1708 Editorial

    http://vimeopro.com/1708editorial/1708-editorial

  • Sat, Feb 5 2011 4:34 PM In reply to

    • Mark Job
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Sun, Jan 23 2011
    • Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    • Posts 124
    • Points 1,495

    Re: MC5 interface settings gone?

    Firefly Studios:
    There was quite a disconnect between the "we beta tested it and people thought it was great"
    …Well, let us begin there. First, I am an experienced beta tester. For any "true" beta program to exist, it *must* be performed by *3rd party* individuals, who are *Not* employees of the company. Based on Mr. Capria's description, this was not a real beta program.

    HP nw 9440 ISV Certified Workstation with nVidia Quaddro FX 1500 M w/512 MB of on board GDDR 3 RAM GPU, 2.16 GHz Core 2 Duo CPU, 100 GB 7200 RPM HDD, 4... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Feb 5 2011 4:51 PM In reply to

    Re: MC5 interface settings gone?

    Mark Job:
    For any "true" beta program to exist, it *must* be performed by *3rd party* individuals, who are *Not* employees of the company.

    Let's not jump to conclusions.

    I read Frank Capria's posting, but nowhere do I get the impression that it was only Avid employees who alpha and beta tested. Quite the contrary. I know at least one person who beta tested MC5, and this individual most certainly is a heavy everyday user, and not an Avid fanboy, nor paid by Avid.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Feb 5 2011 4:53 PM In reply to

    • Mark Job
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    • Joined on Sun, Jan 23 2011
    • Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    • Posts 124
    • Points 1,495

    Re: MC5 interface settings gone?

    switthaus:
    Be careful where you are throwing stones, here.
    Hi Scott:

    Throwing stones ? Scott, did you read his post to Larry ? Wow ! It does read like a dressing down/talking down session from an Avid representative to a major customer. The description of how they went about designing and testing the changes in MC5 is also troubling, as it appears to be too *internal* from a motus aperundi point of view. Based on what Mr. Capria wrote in his description of the "beta" program, it is not a real beta program.

    Mark

    HP nw 9440 ISV Certified Workstation with nVidia Quaddro FX 1500 M w/512 MB of on board GDDR 3 RAM GPU, 2.16 GHz Core 2 Duo CPU, 100 GB 7200 RPM HDD, 4... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Feb 5 2011 4:58 PM In reply to

    Re: MC5 interface settings gone?

    Job ter Burg:
    I know at least one person who beta tested MC5, and this individual most certainly is a heavy everyday user, and not an Avid fanboy, nor paid by Avid.

    Job:

    Out of curiosity, what was that individual's overall assessment of MC 5? Likes? Dislikes? Recommendations?

     

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Sat, Feb 5 2011 5:00 PM In reply to

    Re: MC5 interface settings gone?

    Mark Job:
    did you read his post to Larry

    I didn't read any harm in it.

    Larry raised serious issues, Frank explained how things happened. He's straightforward, and he's being defensive. Not so weird, given the circumstances.

    Mark Job:
    The description of how they went about designing and testing the changes in MC5 is also troubling

    I fail to read that in that post by Frank. Sorry.

     

    I do see the issues raised by many here. And with a lot of them, I agree. But let's try and not take everything too personal.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Feb 5 2011 5:00 PM In reply to

    Re: MC5 interface settings gone?

    Larry Rubin:

    Job:

    Out of curiosity, what was that individual's overall assessment of MC 5? Likes? Dislikes? Recommendations?

    Can't say I asked, so I don't know.

     

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Feb 5 2011 5:01 PM In reply to

    • Mark Job
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Sun, Jan 23 2011
    • Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    • Posts 124
    • Points 1,495

    Re: MC5 interface settings gone?

    Job ter Burg:

    Let's not jump to conclusions.

    I read Frank Capria's posting, but nowhere do I get the impression that it was only Avid employees who alpha and beta tested.

    …. Hi Job: Here's a direct quote from Mr. Capria's post: "We went back to the Beta team at Avid to get more testers." 

    A beta testing program is set up to test an RC (Release Candidate) to selected outside-non-Avid employees. What's described well in Mr. Capria's post is what is commonly known as an Alpha Program of inside testing and design development - Not a beta program.

    HP nw 9440 ISV Certified Workstation with nVidia Quaddro FX 1500 M w/512 MB of on board GDDR 3 RAM GPU, 2.16 GHz Core 2 Duo CPU, 100 GB 7200 RPM HDD, 4... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Feb 5 2011 5:03 PM In reply to

    Re: MC5 interface settings gone?

    Joe M:

    One of the basic problems with threads of this nature is that it almost always brings into target the negative aspects.  In general, when asked to comment...Complaints are far more likely to show up than praise.  Of course, that's not all bad either... it just needs to be taken into the context of the initial purpose and intent when asking for feedback.  However, expecting more complaints than praise should be expected.

    That is quite true, and it is precisely the reason I posted this earlier in this same thread:

    "Getting back on topic, it occurs to me that in the interest of fairness and balance, we should make every effort to post about the things we really like about new capabilities of MC 5. We know we have problems with the interface and I'm sure the design team is hearing that loud and clear, but we also know there are some really great improvements that caught our attention, like the support for more formats (like RED) to work in Avid's native environment then EVER before, etc. Let's do our collective best to not make this just a bashing session (and I'm not saying that's what it currently is, either). But keep the criticism coming as well. It does seem that there are many, many correlations in message here."

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Sat, Feb 5 2011 5:05 PM In reply to

    Re: MC5 interface settings gone?

    Reading the entire post, I get the impression that they put the idea through a lot of testing, both outside and inside. I wouldn't base a conclusion about Avid's testing cycles on a single line from a forum posting. Maybe it would be nice if Avid were more precise in how that works, but I doubt it's much different from any other software developing company.

     

    For the record: I've switched to MC5 as soon as it came out. Kept MC4 on an HD, so I could quickly revert to 4 if I felt it wasn't right. I just never went back. Completed two features, four trailers and some promo's on it. So no, I don't think v5 is a complete dog.

    Ever since I could at least turn the smart part of the smart tool off, I can live with it. I dislike that they have taken away the interface customization that they so proudly introduced 10 years ago (while ignoring the actual important stuff back then). I dislike the imperfection of how stereo tracks have been implemented (see the difference between a mixdown and capture and import). As someone who works mostly on PC's, but sometime on a Mac, I've learned to work around changes in the control key department.

    I'm all for raising hell when people find their everyday workflow is being crippled. I've done it myself, and I'll probably do it again. Just don't like jumping to conclusions and personal attacks.

     

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Feb 5 2011 5:08 PM In reply to

    Re: MC5 interface settings gone?

    Mark Job:
    Don't hire Larry - Let Avid just listen to him, and stop making disgustingly rude and arrogant responses to him like Mr. Frank Capria has done a few months back ! I read this Avid person's response to Larry's concerns in another similar thread and it made me sick to my stomach ! You can read that response here at  http://community.avid.com/forums/p/85356/493161.aspx#493161 Unbelieveable Larry ! I just can't believe this response from Avid to *The senior editor of the US Pentagon Channel !* What is the Pentagon's investment to date in Avid products ? 1.5 Million $ US ?

    Mark Job

    Mark, I am quoting you, but this one just one of quite a few instances of what can be accurately characterized as personal attacks on Avid employees. This is uncalled for, and I firmly believe that it has to stop and stop now.

    It very poorly reflects upon this forum, disincentives Avid employees from posting here, and quite simply, no one deserves to read about themselves like this.

    I want to say that I just read Frank's response. It went into great detail. Is it totally satisfactory? I don't know, but I do not find it offensive.

    I too scratch my head with some of the changes, esp. when other requests have gone unnoticed for decades. But I think any and everyone from Avid should feel free to visit here w/o the fear of being insulted or having their job called for.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Sat, Feb 5 2011 5:20 PM In reply to

    Re: MC5 interface settings gone?

    BobbyMurcerFan:
    ...this one just one of quite a few instances of what can be accurately characterized as personal attacks on Avid employees. This is uncalled for and, I firmly believe that it has to stop and stop now.

    It very poorly reflects upon this forum, disincentives Avid employees from posting here, and quite simply, no one deserves to read about themselves like this.

    I want to say that I just read Frank's response. It went into great detail. Is it totally satisfactory? I don't know, but I do not find it offensive.

    I too scratch my head with some of the changes, esp. when other requests have gone unnoticed for decades. But I think any and everyone from Avid should feel free to visit here w/o the fear of being insulted or having their job called for.

    I agree.  We've always stressed the importance of maintaining professional discussions, which keeps the forum from turning into just one more pointless internet shout festival.

    ciao,
    Carl 

     

    Media Composer 2024.6 w/Symphony/SS/PF options, HP Z-Book G6 17", i7-9850H 2.60GHz, 64gb RAM, NVIDIA Quadro RTX 3000, Blackmagic UltraStudio Mini... [view my complete system specs]

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who only consider the price are this man's lawful prey."  - John Ruskin (1819-1900)

     

    Carl Amoscato | Freelance Film & Video Editor | London, UK

  • Sat, Feb 5 2011 5:23 PM In reply to

    Re: MC5 interface settings gone?

    Mark Job:
    Here's a direct quote from Mr. Capria's post: "We went back to the Beta team at Avid to get more testers." 

    The "Beta Team" that he mentions consists of a couple of individual Avid employees that manage the entire Beta Program.  The Beta Program is comprised of Avid users who have signed up to be a part of the Beta Program. 

    So what Frank was saying is that they went to the Beta Team at Avid to get more people from their list of Beta testers that are in the Beta Program. 

    I know Frank personally and I don't read any malice towards Larry or anyone here in the post that you've referenced.  What I read is a very detailed explanation of the process that they went through to bring the SmartTool specifically to the product. 

    I also have to say that I don't see MCv5 as a total failure either.  There a couple of little things that I've expressed problem with on these threads and even directly to people at Avid.  I am confident that those issues will be looked and fixed in upcoming releases.

     

    Kenton VanNatten | Avid Editor (for hire)

    "I am not obsessed... I'm detail-oriented"

  • Sat, Feb 5 2011 5:46 PM In reply to

    • Mark Job
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Sun, Jan 23 2011
    • Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    • Posts 124
    • Points 1,495

    Re: MC5 interface settings gone?

    BobbyMurcerFan:
    Mark, I am quoting you, but this one just one of quite a few instances of what can be accurately characterized as personal attacks on Avid employees. This is uncalled for and, I firmly believe that it has to stop and stop now.
    ….Hi BobbyMercerFan: I'm not attacking anyone. I am reacting to a post made from an Avid Employee which I found horribly arrogant and another example of the Avid knows best attitude, which I've been complaining about. This is typical on this forum. You Avid apologists will shoot down and shut down anyone who doesn't cheer lead the corporation. While I say this corporation totally sucks in the manner in which it communicates with the customer which they take for granted !

    If you folks on the forum consider I have unfairly attacked an Avid employee, then I invite you to please go ahead and throw me off of this forum ! I really couldn't give a damn anymore ! I didn't even want to come back, but did so because I was invited to do so.

    After they way we boutique editors were treated up here at the Avid Symposium in Montreal, I think this company has lost all credibility with many, many end users anyway !

    HP nw 9440 ISV Certified Workstation with nVidia Quaddro FX 1500 M w/512 MB of on board GDDR 3 RAM GPU, 2.16 GHz Core 2 Duo CPU, 100 GB 7200 RPM HDD, 4... [view my complete system specs]
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