Randall L Rike:

"... but I will now have to buy a new bob ..."

Makes you wonder how many users will skip future upgrades, as they don't want to lose use of their Adreanalines, and can't afford to invest in new hardware.

I love Avid. Been editing with Avid since 1991.

I purchased the upgrade to MC5 back in June when it was released because of their promotion. Didn't install until this month. Thought I would wait until the bugs were worked out. LOL (After all it is 5.0.3 and now .7r) I won't go through the list of grievances because they have all been posted numerous times in numerous forums. Just wished I had searched the forums more than I did before I took the plunge.

But the issue of my $30K Adrenaline HD being EOL and the problems with MC5 together is just a little hard to swallow. Avid sales contacts me occasionally wanting me to upgrade my Adrenaline, but when I ask, "What is the upgrade price to Nitris DX?" They don't know, and then I say, "It's probably not a good time for me to upgrade right now anyway because of how the economy has affected my business." (I’m sure I’m not the only one wanting to put off hardware purchases.) Yes, I know I could be re-directed to someone who could tell me, but I didn't initiate the call and really didn't want to spend the time at that moment to find out. You would think if they were asking me to upgrade they would at least know the upgrade price.  And, maybe someone can help me understand what benefits I would gain over the Adrenaline, besides being a little peppier.

So for the first time I find myself looking at the Avid2FCP transition website, seeing if it is even feasible for me to make the switch. Checking out Kona 3G and the breakout box and thinking how cheaply I could make the switch. I never get involved in the Avid vs. FCP debates because I feel that whatever tool works best for you is the right tool. But if I am now going to have to invest in new hardware to stay current, maybe this is the time to make the switch. It scares me to think that I am going to have to learn a new interface, but it looks like I'm learning a new interface anyway with MC5. (Yes, I know, many things are still the same.) I just hate the thought of losing out on 20 years of experience with Avid. I have had a client tell me that it seems like my hands are just an extension of the keyboard, and he's right. I don't think about what buttons I'm pushing, I just think about what I want to happen and it is automatic. That has been the beauty of Avid for me. I don't know how long it will take me to become proficient with FCP, but just the fact that I'm considering it should send a strong message to Avid.
 

 

All of Avid's legal BS, (Sarbanes/Oxley? BLKDOG please!?!

All of their "Don't worry, the fix will come sometime"

All of the "improvements" of MC5

The Title Tool stagnant for so many years

The antiquated Colour Correct tools of the Symphony

The lack of 3rd party controller support (even with Avid owning Euphonics)

2 year old Hardware being made obsolete as a chorus of Salespeople hassle you to upgrade, upgrade, upgrade.

 

Are these the actions/products of a company that cares what the users think?

MC5 and all of Avid's reaction or lack thereof are essentially an extended middle finger to the Avid Editor. Which they have given to us many times over the years.

 

My next upgrade will be to FCP. Heck even Avid's own Euphonics CC unit works with Apple Color and not the Symphony.

 

btw BLKDOG I do appreciate the position you are in, and appreciate your attempts at explanation

@ronjon & my fellow editors:

                                         This is another major beef I have with Avid - The unreasonably priced proprietary hardware and the overall TCO of Avid Media Composer ! Why should I pay the retarded price of $7,500.00 US for a Mojo DX or the $10,000.00 US price for the Nitris DX box ? For $3,500.00 I can have an AJA ioHD external firewire 800 box which will run off an iMAC or Mac Book Pro and the ioHD has every connection type known to the industry ! Since one can run AMC on selected Mac Book Pro's, then would this not be a much more cost effective way to go ? Avid is expensive ! Avid is expensive ! Why not qualify the BlackMagic Declink cards for use on PC or MAC with AMC ? 

                                         Also, the so called approved list of Avid *Certified PC and MAC computers: If I want to run the latest version of AMC on a PC based laptop, then I have either the top HP or Dell M6500 power work station laptops to choose from. You must be kidding me !! I priced the Dell M6500 out with Dell on the telephone configured to meet what Avid has listed as *certified, and it priced out @ $14,670.00 !!! What's the matter with you people at Avid ? This is the height of ridiculous absurdity ! What is wrong with ATI Radeon cards ? What is wrong with Matrox cards too ? I won't pay !! I REFUSE to pay that amount just to qualify my gear to run this app !! New thinking ? Nope ! The same old Avid, who wants to treat the mid sized to small boutique cutters like they do NBC, CBS, ABC. Who needs a TCO like that just to stay current ? Our certified HP nw9440 laptop workstation is no longer certified to run AMC 5.X

ronjohn:

I just hate the thought of losing out on 20 years of experience with Avid. I have had a client tell me that it seems like my hands are just an extension of the keyboard, and he's right. I don't think about what buttons I'm pushing, I just think about what I want to happen and it is automati

I think that this was the least considered factor whe the user interface changes were proposded and then implimented MC5.

Consider that in one small shop here the current editors have 41 years of collective intellectual investment in the Avid interface. Add to that 18 years of buying Avids and upgrades (because of what it was) and we should have very good reasons for sticking with the what had always been our NLE of choice. 

The fact tht we learned Avid in the first place shows we probably have all the skills required to master the UI changes. So my serious question to the others here was... why dont we just embrace the UI changes? The resounding answer came in the form of another question, Why would we bother when none of the changes did anything to improve our speed, quality or our workflows.  Sad.

Then like other owners of Adrenaline HD's ($35K) I have been offered a deal to trade back upgrade to Nitris DX (2 year old technology now). I KNOW I should not compare but the fact that a Mojo SDI (SD only) owner gets offered exactly the same deal does not sit well with me.

Then consider that for virtually the same outlay as this trade back upgrade I could buy a DS software seat (getting another MC as a bonus(?)) and significant improvements with keying. effects etc whilst retaining my HD and filebased IO's through MC4 and Adrenaline HD.

jiggyjay... I am with you... I am also a bast#$%d child....    oops... I mean... I am also a Liquid to MC user convert by default.

I remember when I mentioned how MC took more strokes and mouse clicks to do some of the simpliest of things... also how the UI seem a but archaic and not very intuitive - IMHO.   The general response was ... MC isn't Liquid and to learn the MC way... A sort of Love or Leave it approach seemed to be the general response.  Fair enough... but, perhaps it can also be said that...

MC4 isn't MC5... for good or for worse.

As for ST... I fall under the ignorance is bliss category... since I never really learned to use MC4... I can't fairly make a comparison.  For me ST is not so much as a new tool but an original tool.  And, after some time getting use to MC5 (in general) I have learned to used the ST tool effectively... unfortunately, the ST tool as a drag and drop tool is not that good since it takes more than just a drag and drop tool such as ST to make MC a good drag and drop option editing application ( I explain this in more detail below).

What is wrong with MC's UI?

What I see is that FCP and Adobe's interface is far better suited for drag and drop...While MC5 is a strange combination of attempting to be a drag and drop application in the skin of a keystroke based application.  It appears to me MC5 is a work in progress and most likely most will have to wait for the next major release to PAY for the priviledge of having an editing application that works effectively and efficiently as a keyboard and drag and drop NLE (I hope I am wrong).

It appears Avid wants to compete with other drag and drop NLE's... as a result... ST was the brain child.  Unfortunately, the brain child might have been premature.  It's is not a very good drag and drop tool to use and it seems to have caused problems with the those that used the keystroke editing method.  In effect, ST is what I have described as a "almost pregnant" drag and drop tool.

That beings said... since 5.0.3... when I turn off ST... it stays off and doesn't seem to effect anything in the editing process.  Which makes me wonder why some are still so adament about removing the ST tool... perhaps, I am missing something - here... or is the "turn off ST" complaint becoming just whining at this point.

In general, the biggest problem with the UI is that it is not veryflexible.  MC limits the number of buttons from the tool pallete that can be place in the windows.  And, there is no ability to add tabs... basically, MC is waaaay behind Adobe (for example) in a user friendly UI.  And... I will bet anyone that MC development teams are heading into a more flexible UI - similar to Adobe's.... it is definately catch up time for MC and a more flexible UI... in fact, it's been catch up time for many years.

Another issue is the color coding of clips in the bins... it is not stable and doesn't add as much as it's potential.  Worse yet, MC's ability to color code and organize the clips in the bins is just plain insufficient.  And fails to do something as simple as indicate which clips are used in the bin within the sequence without going through a complicated process that makes it useless - sort of an example of and the story of my MC's initial impressions.

What would be a plus for future releases?

1)  BACKGROUND RENDERING.... for those who used it with Liquid knows it value in saving time... those that don't miss it are in a state of denial.  MC users... you are missing out BIG TIME without background rendering or at least a render que.

2)  Organization of the effects is as poor as Liquids... a simple search option for effects would go a looong way to saving time.

3) The one mouse click to save a frame as a picture... resulting in a transcoded and imported picture into the bin is a MAJOR time saver.

4) Drag and drop of a clip into a timeline should NOT default to A1 and A2 - ONLY... that's just crazy.

5) Drag and drop an effect into any clip on a timeline... without any other keystroke needed.

In a nutshell... if AVID is going to have a drag and drop NLE option... then make it work on the simpliest level... until then, you have an expensive work in process called MC5.. and an ST tools that is castrated.

There are a few other suggestions... like a much better CC and text editor (...but, I believe this seems to have been a request for some time - which makes me wonder if AVID really does listen to it's users)... and some effects are just too buggy to use.

AND... heaven forbid I bring up the Script View bin issue... mine works (most of the time)... but, this should be fixed - like... as of yesterday.

What I like about MC5?

I like AMA linking... when it works... but, MC is still not there in terms of stability.... which is pretty sad considering AVID's reputation.

That's it... you might note the dislikes out number the likes... but, that's because I think there are many basic functions in MC5 that could be more useful and easy to use compared to it's current configuration.

 

Joe M:

perhaps, I am missing something - here... or is the "turn off ST" complaint becoming just whining at this point

First of all, from time to time, ST will toggle itself back on. Second, it takes up real estate on my screen. One of the great things about MC is that its interface is customizable, and you can choose which buttons and functions live where. But the ST was implemented as a non-removable, ever-floating tool. I need those inches for my timeline.

 

Job ter Burg:

One of the great things about MC is that its interface is customizable

That should read "One of the great things about MC was that its interface used to be customizable", sorry Job, but one of the things gone away with MC5 is customizability, which is one of the main points of this thread too.

Job and Luca,

Could this be the answer to a customisable ST, with a permanent "OFF" setting?

HERE

Regards,
Douglas

Huzah!

 

That's going to be a relief for a few people around my part of the world. Good stuff!

Douglas, can this function be added to the ST, making it mouse position sensitive on the timeline while cutting?

carlgmi:

Douglas, can this function be added to the ST, making it mouse position sensitive on the timeline while cutting?

I don't know, Carl.
I am not such a technical person.
I guess we shall just have to wait and see

Regards,
Douglas

 

drbgaijin:

Could this be the answer to a customisable ST, with a permanent "OFF" setting?

You have too much free time, Douglas.  

ciao,
Carl 

camoscato:

You have too much free time, Douglas.  

ciao,
Carl 

I am an active and creative pensioner Carl

Regards,
Douglas

 

Joe:

Allow me to address certain points in your post. First regarding the smart tool. No one is really advocating the complete elimination of the ST from the interface (except maybe, Douglas! see his link above in this thread). What we are asking for is a reliable on/off switch that does not permit the ST to randomly reactivate itself when you have already told it to disable.

Joe M:

What I see is that FCP and Adobe's interface is far better suited for drag and drop...While MC5 is a strange combination of attempting to be a drag and drop application in the skin of a keystroke based application.

For me, I see the workflow as this: drag and drop to the timeline to "rough in" and rearrange your sequence, then use the keyboard to refine and polish the flow, especially for trimming. Personally, as I have stated before, I have found what I consider to be a meld of mouse and keyboard functionality that gives me what I believe is the best of both worlds, not using either full time to the exclusion of the other. 

Joe M:

Another issue is the color coding of clips in the bins... it is not stable and doesn't add as much as it's potential.  Worse yet, MC's ability to color code and organize the clips in the bins is just plain insufficient.

Totally agree with you on that one, and Kenton certainly would as well.

Joe M:

And fails to do something as simple as indicate which clips are used in the bin within the sequence without going through a complicated process that makes it useless

Highlight the sequence and choose "select media relatives" from the bin menu. All clips in all bins that are used in that sequence will be highlighted.

Joe M:

Drag and drop an effect into any clip on a timeline... without any other keystroke needed.

This most certainly is already available, except when combining "nesting" effects onto one clip where an ALT drag is needed.

Joe M:

BACKGROUND RENDERING.... MC users... you are missing out BIG TIME without background rendering or at least a render que.

Absolutely. This has been a standing features request since the earliest days of MC in the early 90's and it astounds me that Avid has not developed it yet.

Joe M:

Drag and drop of a clip into a timeline should NOT default to A1 and A2 - ONLY... that's just crazy.

This issue is on QA's radar screen and hopefully will be addressed soon in a new patch. Note that I said hopefully.

So, there you go. My 10 cents (adjusted for inflation). 

 

 

Joe M:

While MC5 is a strange combination of attempting to be a drag and drop application in the skin of a keystroke based application.

Joe,
I saw that Larry mentioned the blending of D&D with keystrokes in his post above.
Now, as far as I know neither Larry nor Carl have had any experience with Liquid.

So as a Liquid migrant myself I can say that

1. In Liquid I was as good as 100% D&D

2. Today in MC, I D&D for some coarse moves, but use the keyboard for almost all editing and trimming.

Now, if you dig out your Liquid Instruction Manual, I think you will find that Liquid had/has a very well developed Keyboard mapping function and a section of how to use Keyboard shortcuts and commands.
Liquid COULD have been as much of a keyboard controlled NLE as MC is. But, my guess is that, many prosumers and consumers wanted what they thought was an easy way to edit by D&D. I know I was totally blinded by all the information about where and how to drag this and that. I followed the stream.

What am I getting at?

Liquid and MC can both be used for editing using the keyboard.
It is not correct to try and say that MC is keyboard orientated whereas Liquid is D&D orientated.Very many of the D&D moves in Liquid are done much quicker and much more accurately in MC by using the keyboard.

And if it takes 5 keystrokes to do in MC what could be done by 2 keystokes in Liquid......... life may be short,... but a few miliseconds here or there are not very much really.

It is a shame that not more Liquid users discovered the advantages of using the keyboard when they were using Liquid. It would have made your/our migration so much simpler. Please don't try to blame MC for the problems you seem to be having adjusting.

When I moved from Scotland to Sweden, I did my best to fit into the Swedish way of life. I did not say that in Scotland we do things like this... you should change for me.
When I moved from Sweden to Japan, I did not tell the Japanese that they should help me adapt by changing things to be more Swedish or Scottish.

Now, Joe, I am not shouting at anyone, nor am I angry. I just think that we need to step back and take a wider look at the Liquid / MC comparisons that are constantly popping up. After all it is us Liquid migrants who have entered the MC world..... not the opposite.

Regards,
Douglas