Latest post Wed, Jul 23 2008 8:37 AM by camoscato. 202 replies.
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  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 9:26 AM In reply to

    • Blofelds Cat
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    Re: Oh Best Editor in the World, why oh Why can't you import Mpeg2 files?

    Locked Contact

    An excellent topic for conversation.

    MPEG2 has been a dominant mainstream format for how long now? Since which version of Avid Xpress DV (in itself, how many years even before the first incarnation of Xpress Pro)?

    Yet still Avid clings to a mode of thinking which has arguably lost them more prospective customers than they could ever regain, i.e. that MPEG2 is a 'mickey mouse' format which only those wishing to infringe the copyright of licensed DVD's would actually want. Pah! let them eat Edius ...or Vegas ... or Premiere ...any NLE except ours - well, that's exactly what the prospective Avid purchasers did.

    I find that I am moving further toward exclusive Edius Pro usage with each refusal by Avid to natively import any one of dozens of formats which the former accepts without so much as a parse error.

    As this thread's author said, HDV MPEG2 streams are accepted so what, exactly, is the issue with MPEG2?

    Sure there are workarounds that involve third-party software but this 'solution' should only have been  stop-gap that was remedied around a decade ago. Avid, the glory days of being the only NLE in town are gone. Over! Kaput! If you don't keep up with the NLE 'rabble', you are in danger of going the same way as all other companies who short-sightedly believed that they could dine out, in perpetuity, purely on brand name alone.

    I love my Avid NLE, that's why I have purchased complete new versions and upgrades ever since v2 of Xpress DV was first released. However, there's only so much flogging a dying horse can take before it's a dead one; only so long loyal customers are prepared to look the other way, feigning aloofness at the taunts of their fellows who are busy editing MPEG2 source footage while we wait for our third-party converter to teach the same source footage a language that Avid understands; only so long before the lure of accomodating NLE's equipped with all the right curves is too hard to resist.

    Come on, do it, Avid, you know it makes sense.

    Big SmileIdeaCool

     

     

    Proudly non-Avid qualified - Avid Media Composer 3 - HP Pavilion m7288a - Intel Pentium 4 CPU 3.2GHz - 4GB DDR Ram - Gigabyte GeForce 9600GT... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 9:47 AM In reply to

    • Blofelds Cat
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    Re: Oh Best Editor in the World, why oh Why can't you import Mpeg2 files?

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    Dom Q. Silverio:

    I am saying that MC's targeted core user (broadcast and such) had no urgent need for it. This is why a lot of experience MC users (I, Blkddog and the rest) have just used external apps and hardware to solve this particular issue.

    ...

    It would be 'nice' for me for Avid to support it natively. But it is not crucial for me. I still have to rip DVDs which itself is a painful step. And apps I use already rip and QT encode in one step. So it is not like, Avid MPEG SD is going to make that big of a difference for me.

    Speaking as a Broadcast domain Editor in my professional life, I do not exaggerate when I say that over a period of the preceding 5 (five) years, at least, 90% of the footage sent to us by 'punters' and Corporate entities have been in MPEG2 format. While the inability to natively import MPEG2 footage (regardless of the container) was less of a headache for non-deadline situations, it often became a critical shortcoming where deadlines were involved - often being the decider as to whether footage could be used or not.

    Try explaining to a pissed-off Producer or News Producer that your f**k-off NLE was actually incapable of directly importing the single-most widespread file format in use at that time.

    Based on my experience, the high-end/low-end NLE argument, when used in relation to the MPEG2 issue, is a gigantic cop-out. The inability to import MPEG2 files is definitely not in the same category as the inability to perform a 'looks like sh*t transition' as offered in Bindows Movie Breaker (v18.3.4.9.0.0.2.3) - the latter we can do without but the former is an extremely practical and useful feature set.

    BTW, the nationwide Broadcaster I work for has dumped Avid in favour of FCP (for Production work) and Edius Broadcast (for, naturally enough, broadcast and Newscaff use) - that's a hell of a client for Avid to lose (no, I'm not suggesting that an inability to import MPEG2 was a deal-breaker but the individual shortcomings of Avid systems amounted to an avalanche of unacceptable compromise).

    The line between low-end and high-end NLE applications is rapidly blurring and Avid is in desperate need of a new pair of eyeglasses.

    cheers.

     

    Proudly non-Avid qualified - Avid Media Composer 3 - HP Pavilion m7288a - Intel Pentium 4 CPU 3.2GHz - 4GB DDR Ram - Gigabyte GeForce 9600GT... [view my complete system specs]

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    The Bondles - take a trip down Moneypenny Lane to a world in which The Beatles and James Bond collide with moderately humorous result.

  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 9:51 AM In reply to

    Re: Oh Best Editor in the World, why oh Why can't you import Mpeg2 files?

    Locked Contact

    I got myself a DVD player that has an SDI modification. Hooked it up with a long line from studio to machine room. Sound goes from the RCA's into the Yamaha 01V, digitally into the Avid.

    Seriously fast, and looks great.

    Media Composer Symphony | PT Ultimate | Win10 HPZ | OSX MBP | ISIS5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 10:02 AM In reply to

    • Blofelds Cat
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    Re: Oh Best Editor in the World, why oh Why can't you import Mpeg2 files?

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    Haze:

    Source material on DVD - bush league editing.

    Sometimes, more often than I'm comfortable with, beggars can't be choosers. given the choice between using 'the money shot' of the kid being pulled, alive, out of the well, in 'bush league' MPEG2 or the 'long end of the lens' DigiBeta footage, as shot by the professional camerachap, of the backs of the back row of a crowd obscuring the kid being pulled, alive, out of the well, I'll go with the bush league footage every time - except of course in situations where the third-party transcoding software hasn't finished converting the stream to an Avid-compatible format.

    Okay, that's an exaggeration as there may be other options available to me (such as real-time capture of the S-video output of a DVD recorder, or 'off monitor' camera shots) but the point is that for some of us, source material provided on DVD is all we have so don't sniff too strongly at it.

     

    cheers

     

    Proudly non-Avid qualified - Avid Media Composer 3 - HP Pavilion m7288a - Intel Pentium 4 CPU 3.2GHz - 4GB DDR Ram - Gigabyte GeForce 9600GT... [view my complete system specs]

    www.ohmss-007.com

    home of:

    Far Up! Far Out! Far More! - James Bond, On Her Majesty's Secret Service

    The Bondles - take a trip down Moneypenny Lane to a world in which The Beatles and James Bond collide with moderately humorous result.

  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 10:05 AM In reply to

    • Blofelds Cat
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    Re: Oh Best Editor in the World, why oh Why can't you import Mpeg2 files?

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    Job ter Burg:

    I got myself a DVD player that has an SDI modification. Hooked it up with a long line from studio to machine room. Sound goes from the RCA's into the Yamaha 01V, digitally into the Avid.

    Seriously fast, and looks great.

    Yeah, we ended-up jury rigging a similar solution. The only problem is we often use free-lance Editing staff who are unaware of this option or even how to organise the workflow correctly (failure to select the S-Video setting in the Video Input Tool is the usual culprit).Wink

     

    Proudly non-Avid qualified - Avid Media Composer 3 - HP Pavilion m7288a - Intel Pentium 4 CPU 3.2GHz - 4GB DDR Ram - Gigabyte GeForce 9600GT... [view my complete system specs]

    www.ohmss-007.com

    home of:

    Far Up! Far Out! Far More! - James Bond, On Her Majesty's Secret Service

    The Bondles - take a trip down Moneypenny Lane to a world in which The Beatles and James Bond collide with moderately humorous result.

  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 10:15 AM In reply to

    • Blofelds Cat
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    Re: Oh Best Editor in the World, why oh Why can't you import Mpeg2 files?

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    Atomike:

    BLKDOG:

    The SD MPEG codec is ridiculously compressed and not something I, personally, care to ever be native. That's just me though.

    So you've never been handed a DVD, and been asked to put it in a project? You are indeed alone. Literally everyone else on this forum has been asked to do that. We all care about Mpeg import into AVID - no matter how compressed it is. Quality is irrelevant when you are not your own boss.

     

    100% in agreement with the latter comment. As Editors we often do not have the luxury of refusing to use footage which we would otherwise deem to be technically and/or aesthetically unacceptable. I'm sure there are a good number of those reading this thread who knows exactly what I mean when I say that I've had to put some atrocious-quality footage to air which has rankled within every fibre of my professional ethic. All you can do is point-out the shortcomings of the footage; to use or not use is not your decision.

    cheers.

     

    Proudly non-Avid qualified - Avid Media Composer 3 - HP Pavilion m7288a - Intel Pentium 4 CPU 3.2GHz - 4GB DDR Ram - Gigabyte GeForce 9600GT... [view my complete system specs]

    www.ohmss-007.com

    home of:

    Far Up! Far Out! Far More! - James Bond, On Her Majesty's Secret Service

    The Bondles - take a trip down Moneypenny Lane to a world in which The Beatles and James Bond collide with moderately humorous result.

  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 11:56 AM In reply to

    • BLKDOG
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    Re: Oh Best Editor in the World, why oh Why can't you import Mpeg2 files?

    Locked Contact

    silver101:
    I am here today to show you proof that we , The best EDITORS in the world, need a mpeg2 import, directly into our Best Editor.

    No, you, the best editor in the world need that. I, your humble butt in the chair, do not. I would rather Avid focus on the higher quality stuff. See? Two different points of view, that's all.

    J_schinderlin56:
    he says  "That's ridiculous, Vegas can import an MPEG". 

    And, if you were editing a wedding video, Vegas and MPEG 2 would be fine but, since you are a broadcast facility with, I would suppose, some quality standards, you need more than this. So, tell him the server is not acceptable quality... I would. However, I'm not in your situation so, it's wrong of me to presume.

    You too are able to import MPEG 2 into your Avid. So, take the file from your server, run it through MPEG Streamclip and import it. It really is not a problem, especially for a 30 sec spot. Take less than a minute.

     

    Project Manager, Avid Professional Services - Americas [view my complete system specs]

    In agreement, Unity. In Disagreement, Discussion. In all things, Charity.


  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 12:12 PM In reply to

    • berga
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    Re: Oh Best Editor in the World, why oh Why can't you import Mpeg2 files?

    Locked Contact

    First, which incarnation of mpeg-2 are we talking about. It is not possibly to say Avid can not edit SD mpeg-2 because it can. It edit IMX, which is mpeg-2.

    As long as I know the video world, which is close to the entire digital era, I have not meet any professional mpeg-2 cameras except Sony IMX and Beta-SX. By the way, Avid does not yet support native Digital Beta editing, bad!

    In the Sony cases above, there is a solution to playback component or uncompressed SDI signals which Avid easy can handle. This is the way Digital Beta is handle with Avid the last 15 years. I am shure this will be possibly for all other odd mpeg-2 formats.

    HP xw4600, 3.2Mhz, 4Gb RAM, Mojo. 500GB SATA Bootdrive, 3x500GB internal raid-0 for video, Windows 7 Pro Swedish, MC7 with Symphony option, Blackmagic... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 12:29 PM In reply to

    Re: Oh Best Editor in the World, why oh Why can't you import Mpeg2 files?

    Locked Contact

     Hi BLKDOG.

    The one statement that said it all for me was:

    We need help from the people who created our favorite editing platform, to to be told that we shouldn't use it.

    I agree with most if your arguments BLKDOG, but.... In the liniear video editing world (digital or not) sometimes people came with a VHS. We used professional JVC super vhs recorders or consumer VHS recorders with timebase correctors to be able to use that.... bad picture, not broadcast quality. bjjjaaggg. In other words: The pro's used tools to make a consumer product compatible with the professional ones. Not the other way around. (At least I never found a time base corrector at my grandmothers, parents or my own house).

    Likewise you use 3rd party tools to make your Mpeg2 material compatible with avid. That is pro....... or is it?...........................................................................no not any more....I believe

    I get the feeiling you are stuck in this old way of thinking. It's about integration!

    The most professional (digital) video mixers have inputs with time base correctors now. Why?? Simply because new digital technology made it easy to implement it when using SDI. Does that mean we the pro's threw away our reference generators?? No! Does it mean that I don't connect reference to a camera anymore.No! But it does make us pro's more flexable. And being more flexable means using less time to get things done which means less money spend or more time to spend on the creative process of making professional Video and doing great professional editing. And who doesn't want that??? 

    This flexability is the point of this thread. I can't find any argument in your posts why avid should NOT implement this flexability. Why is that?

    I know DVD is not pro, just as VHS was not. But we the pro's needed to find solutions to be compatible with the creative demands that are made by producers, directors, news events etc.... that was and will always be the case... also for you... or are you also creative director and producer..... or was the ancient greek (where I work) god of video editing called AVID or BLKDOG? no negativity implied.. you're one of the best on this forum!!!!!!!!!

    As implementation of SD Mpeg2 must be dead easy for avid why not? It will make the "Best Editor in the World" more flexable and that is very professional. Do you agree? In the meantime we'll have to use 3rd party solutions.

    The only argument I can think of not to is the ease it creates in using other people's material (ripping) and re-using it in your own. But that is not a technical issue.

    So I would like to ask Avid to implement SD Mpeg2 import support. With or without transcoding.... better without.  

     

    From the old Apple Quadro 950 to HP Z8xx. My current own systems: 1x Z420 E5 1650 32GB memory quadro K2200, 1x XW8600, 2x 3.0Ghz Quadcore, 24GB memory... [view my complete system specs]

    Jeroen van Eekeres 

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    Always have a backup of your projects....Always!!!! Yes Always!!!!

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  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 12:50 PM In reply to

    • BLKDOG
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    Re: Oh Best Editor in the World, why oh Why can't you import Mpeg2 files?

    Locked Contact

    You really really need to go back and read what I actually wrote instead of the paraphrasing you quoted. That poster missed my point too. 

    No one has ever said Avid should not be able to import everything from MPEG2 to a '56 Buick. My position is I, personally, don't need it and that's all. What I did suggest is that the poster seriously examine the needs of his clients and his workflow and determine, for themselves, if the need for MPEG 2 outweighed all of the other features and workflows offered by his Avid application. If, that were the case, then another software solution might be a better choice.

    As to your VHS argument, can you name a time in this industry where momentum was ever not in the direction away from VHS? VHS was never a priority in my industry for integration. It was tolerated and sniggered at but never integrated. I submit that it is not I who is stuck in old thinking but you. Formats like MPEG 2 (SD) will soon be left in the dust. I seriously believe it is a codec that will be relegated to the same dust bin as VHS, Real Player, photo jpeg and all the rest that have come and gone. In 5 years DVD will be a quaint relic that our grandchildren will use as coasters. I prefer that Avid look forward and not back. For me, and for me only, there is no need to waste engineering resources on a codec of the past.

    If Implementation was "dead Easy" believe me, Avid would have done it. There is some reason the codec is not included maybe someday those reasons will be gone. Until then, it is very easy to use MPEG 2 material should you need to. 

    Project Manager, Avid Professional Services - Americas [view my complete system specs]

    In agreement, Unity. In Disagreement, Discussion. In all things, Charity.


  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 1:28 PM In reply to

    • silver101
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    Re: Oh Best Editor in the World, why oh Why can't you import Mpeg2 files?

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  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 3:56 PM In reply to

    Re: Oh Best Editor in the World, why oh Why can't you import Mpeg2 files?

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     For me, in an environment where racing the clock is all too common a scenario, it all comes down to elapsed time for the task. So I also have a DVD player in my edit suite for realtime capture, because in almost every case, it's faster than transcoding, converting and importing. Again, like BLKDOG, not making any value judgments here, just the plain truth of the situations I have to deal with on a day to day basis. And I also have had to use what in my mind is substandard video material because that's all we have been given to work with to tell the story. In these circumstances, often dictated by higher management, you just bite the bullet, suck it up and do the best you can with what you have, even if that means you have to try to make champagne out of s--t. That's the nature of the beast sometimes.

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  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 4:12 PM In reply to

    • bobcat
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    Re: Oh Best Editor in the World, why oh Why can't you import Mpeg2 files?

    Locked Contact

    I'll take this a step further and add that I use a DVD recorder/player for both input and output, because when you are under deadline and need to output a DVD fast (rough cut approval, final, whatever), the quickest way that I have found is the stand alone recorder/player. If you have the time and need the best quality then I can understand using the software approach.

    This is just a simple case of solve the problem and move on. If Avid would add the feature that would be great, just one more feature. But, no editing program Ive ever used has all the features that I've wanted. No harm in asking, but don't base your business on waiting for that feature.

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  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 4:20 PM In reply to

    • BLKDOG
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    Re: Oh Best Editor in the World, why oh Why can't you import Mpeg2 files?

    Locked Contact

    bobcat:
    no editing program Ive ever used has all the features that I've wanted. No harm in asking, but don't base your business on waiting for that feature.

    That is exactly my point.

    Project Manager, Avid Professional Services - Americas [view my complete system specs]

    In agreement, Unity. In Disagreement, Discussion. In all things, Charity.


  • Thu, Jul 17 2008 6:02 PM In reply to

    Re: Oh Best Editor in the World, why oh Why can't you import Mpeg2 files?

    Locked Contact

    And so do I. Using a stand alone DVD recorder with component output and firewire is the best solution. It's fast, cheap and always works (for me).

    But in response to your post 

    You really really need to go back and read what I actually wrote instead of the paraphrasing you quoted. That poster missed my point too.

    Did I? Lets see. 

    No one has ever said Avid should not be able to import everything from MPEG2 to a '56 Buick. My position is I, personally, don't need it and that's all. What I did suggest is that the poster seriously examine the needs of his clients and his workflow and determine, for themselves, if the need for MPEG 2 outweighed all of the other features and workflows offered by his Avid application. If, that were the case, then another software solution might be a better choice.

    These are a simple facts. We can complain but always need to find the best workaround. I completely agree.

    As to your VHS argument, can you name a time in this industry where momentum was ever not in the direction away from VHS?

    Never.

    VHS was never a priority in my industry for integration. It was tolerated and sniggered at but never integrated.

    True.

    I submit that it is not I who is stuck in old thinking but you.

    Again lets see the arguments.

    Formats like MPEG 2 (SD) will soon be left in the dust. I seriously believe it is a codec that will be relegated to the same dust bin as VHS, Real Player, photo jpeg and all the rest that have come and gone. In 5 years DVD will be a quaint relic that our grandchildren will use as coasters.

    And there you have it. I agree that Mpeg2 SD is old but you believe that it will be there for another 5 years. Why should avid then not support it for another 5 years? I just bought sony XDCAM recorders. That's pro and guess what Mpeg2 SD.... ok different file format, different bitrate etc... but Mpeg2 is here to stay for at least 7 years as that is the warranty time of the machine.

    I prefer that Avid look forward and not back. For me, and for me only, there is no need to waste engineering resources on a codec of the past.

    I agree partially. Avid should indeed look forward. But it's no excuse for being incompatible with the current. (not even past). The old thinking was that we pro's added extra equipment to be compatible with the consumer equipment (VHS) like TBC's. In the new thinking that should NOT be the case. That is where we disagree.

    If Implementation was "dead Easy" believe me, Avid would have done it.

    It is dead easy! If you implement all the latest IMX, XDCAM,P2 etc... Mpeg formats then implementing the most common Mpeg2 DVD format is no issue. If you look at all the other software that's out there....

    There is some reason the codec is not included maybe someday those reasons will be gone. Until then, it is very easy to use MPEG 2 material should you need to. 

    Yes there are very easy workarounds. Maybe even better then what we will ever get from Avid. But this thread is about that reason. I don't see that reason and you also don't give one. And I believe there is no technical one.
    The only one I can think of is to prefent easy DVD ripping.
    From the old Apple Quadro 950 to HP Z8xx. My current own systems: 1x Z420 E5 1650 32GB memory quadro K2200, 1x XW8600, 2x 3.0Ghz Quadcore, 24GB memory... [view my complete system specs]

    Jeroen van Eekeres 

    Technical director, Broadcast support engineer, Avid ACSR.

     

    Always have a backup of your projects....Always!!!! Yes Always!!!!

    A.V.I.D....... Another Version In Development

    www.mediaoffline.com

     

     

     

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