Latest post Wed, Apr 29 2020 1:44 AM by Telegram!. 7 replies.
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  • Tue, Apr 28 2020 3:46 AM

    • djhg
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    workflow without grouping or linking multiple clips on timeline

    It appears to me that MC doesn't make provision for this, so I'm wondering how the most seasoned of users efficiently do what this feature would allow.

    In my pre-MC days if I needed to work with a cinematic moment depicted in a group of clips, I would group a video clip - or a series of them together- with all their associated audio (including scoring events and audio effects.) most - or none - of this audio may have been recorded with the video.

    I then need only click on one of the clips to know that I have selected them all to move this event laterally on the timeline. I don't have to zoom in and out and scroll the timeline to know they're selected. I have often given this group of clips the same colour to identify the group.

    I can zoom into the timeline to where I need to, say, move the moment so its audio has a different relationship with another event's audio. While zoomed into the waveform with each audio moment easily visible, I select the audio of the clip I need to move, and the whole cinematic moment will move to where I drag it, without any timeline navigation.

    Wondering how seasoned Avid users work without this feature. Surely there's a better way to move a moment on a timeline without the need to zoom and scroll to choose each clip with an accumulaion of shift-LMBs, then zoom into the moment to be viewed and make the move, all the time knowing that an errant LMB will mean needing to do all the selections over again.

     

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  • Tue, Apr 28 2020 5:13 AM In reply to

    Re: workflow without grouping or linking multiple clips on timeline

    I have a question or two for you:

    Are you specifically not using the mouse when you are editing?

    Have you ever used the mouse to Lasso (to Highlight/Select) Clips prior to moving them?

    Have you ever used Lasso to bring many clips into Slide Trim mode?

    What tool or button or key are you using to Zoom in and out on Tineline?

    Which MC version?

    With some timeline clips highlighted, if you Right-Click in Composer (or is it Timeline?), do you see a tool available to operate on your "Highlighted or Selected Clips"? Have you tried using it? 

    Which NLE software were you using before, it sounds good in this regard?

    Curious, what is the nature of the Projects you are editing? 

    Would you be willing to demonstrate what you are doing with a video?

     

    You ask good questions and you may have to accept differences between MC and your other set-up.

     

     

     

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  • Tue, Apr 28 2020 6:51 AM In reply to

    • djhg
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    Re: workflow without grouping or linking multiple clips on timeline

    Thanks, Telegram.

    Telegram!:
    Are you specifically not using the mouse when you are editing?

    Yes. LMB = Left Mouse Button.

    Telegram!:
    Have you ever used the mouse to Lasso (to Highlight/Select) Clips prior to moving them

    Yes. But I'd like to avoid having to zoom and scrolland mouse around to do that. It gets fiddly very fast; if clips that aren't part of my target cinema moment are within that lasso area (they usually are) I have to deselect each one of them after the lassoing and before the move. usually it's just as fast (slow) to select them all one by one. I'd like to avoid having to repeat all these selections for elements which always need to remain in sync together. It seems inefficient. Moreover, it's very easy to leave a component out of a move selection, or include one that shouldn't be moved, and it can be very complicated to retrace steps and accomplish sync once this has happened, especially if it's happened with a few segments. Grouping does away with all of this complexity and risk by making all components of any visual/audio moment instantly selectable with one click.

    Telegram!:
    What tool or button or key are you using to Zoom in and out on Tineline?

    I have assigned key commands. Sometimes I flip between custom timeline display cofigurations.

    Telegram!:
    Which MC version?

    6.5. I thought maybe grouping was there without my knowing or had been added since then, but it appears not (from my forum searches.)

    Telegram!:
    With some timeline clips highlighted, if you Right-Click in Composer (or is it Timeline?), do you see a tool available to operate on your "Selected Clips"?

    I always RMB on anything in an application to see if an action comes up. In this case, nothing for selected clips except render and duplicate. Once I have selected, I know many ways to do what I want. It's the selection process for all the bits of a component which seems - with my workflow - quite complicated without grouping.

    Telegram!:
    What software were you using before, it sounds good in this regard?

    Premiere Pro. (I switched to MC some years ago for reasons of reliability and competent support.) But grouping, (and even default key combinations to select elements within groups) has - in addition to in Premiere Pro - also been for decades a common operation in all CAD and Graphics software I have used, so I've come to work with the expectation that it's available in some way.

    I edited much more on this now-outdated MC setup several years ago and have returned again to it, this time with the intention of learning best methods and more tools. Among those - I hoped - would be a grouping feature which I felt must surely exist.

    Telegram!:
    Curious, what is the nature of the Projects you are editing?

    I've moved to my own very independent narrative drama from client-focussed promotional pieces. Facility with moving elements around to quickly explore and implement changes in the timing and delivery of moments is a frequent part of the task. My process is additive as I explore overlapping takes and approaches, so elements currently visible end up on top / overlapping / and mixed in with others. These extraneous parts get lassoed when I don't want to move them.

    Telegram!:
    Would you be willing to demonstrate what you are doing with a video?

    I suppose so, if necessary.

    On the one hand, grouping seems like a very basic requirement. On the other hand, MC proliferates as the preferred solution for narrative drama so I'd like to determine if I need to adapt and work in such a way that I don't have to pick/select/lasso/deselect my way through many clips and effects every time I want to adjust a moment. I have a hunch that grouping isn't possible because it defeats what is for many a tried-and-true way of working that I've yet to be exposed to. (The possibility of adaptation is a response to your last question:

    Telegram!:
    You ask good questions and you may have to accept differences between MC and your other set-up.
    )

    It could be that tutorial modules that are very specific would help. (I've taken a great many general ones). But that could be a rabbit hole in my case, because I don't follow the usual narrative drama workflow of locking picture before foley, effects, music and grading are implemented. I do them all at once; I do fx, grade with the Baselight plugin, and know my way with music and a DAW; all these contributions affect how I cut and I include them all at once on the timeline. For me, it's glorious to deal with them all at once, but for complete comfort using MC this is either demanding more organizational tools than I'm currently using; or a different workflow.

    Thankyou Telegram for your provocative questions.

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  • Tue, Apr 28 2020 8:05 AM In reply to

    Re: workflow without grouping or linking multiple clips on timeline

    OK Thanks for that picture of your process it was all clear and makes sense. First thing is that MC uses the term GroupClip so "grouping", in Avid-speak, is usually when 2 or more cameras of the same scene, turned into a hybrid clip that lets you flip "banks" or cameras. (Although you can use Avid's grouping on, for instance, a bin full of JPEGs) Your grouping term may come from CAD world or premiere, but I am sorry to say that's not in MC.

    The newest versions do have a whole lot of Tineline/Clip Segment features and context-menu tools that let you move clips vertically with ease, make duplicate clips, to visually MUTE clips, which is so neat; extra local clip colors; various Settings, including one to not Select Filler with Segment Tools for when lasso/highlighting clips- which would be of interest to you; right-Click context menu item(s) to let you make a sub-sequence from highlighted timeline clips, plus something called RTAS for multiple real-time audio fix per track, across the whole track. there's also something called a Smart Tools which I just ignore and defeat in Settings, that you should look at for sure.
    So there's a bunch of non-linear tools for treating your Tineline like a creative space as you work things out. Not to confuse things, but the latest MC versions do allow you to turn a sequence, or part of a Sequence, into a GroupClip-like object called a Multi-Group. Or maybe it's best to call it a MultiGroup-like object, (I think there's a tiny distinction vs. traditional MultiGroups as seen on MC6) with Audio and Video clips fixed in their relative sequence positions horizontally and vertically on their tracks, potentially a way to "package" sections of Tineline you want to move around and identify differently beyond local color... but I don't know for sure. I will eventually look that over very carefully as I was among those asking such a feature for years.

    It's something to learn & play with, but it's probably still not answering your primary question, about zooming in and selecting clips easily. Hmmm.


    I forgot to ask if you use Synclocks always All ON, always all OFF, or mixed. That's always good to know or decide on as an MC editor.


    There is a clip snapping concept that you can explore and I think a Tineline setting plus use of modifiers while dragging clips, including Snap to Cursor, which might help; You can sub-sequence and re-edit from the sub, but I don't think that's your style;

    Take a look at Collapse Tool which operates on stacked video tracks. It will unite the clips in their relative positions, and can then be moved elsewhere on timeline but I don't think it's mean't for the kind of editing you need, and un-collapsing won't make you happy, I suspect. On the other hand, if you have a bunch of multi-track video treatments you like, but just want to reposition them as a chunk, it would be a video-only way to do that.

    Nope, unless someone here can suggest an outboard "artist" controller which I believe can run macros, and transform the tedium into a no-brainer... once you lose your mind setting it all up. 

    I'm out of ideas. You've got a need for precision but also a need for a kind of creative playpen and for all its non-linearity, editing with computers is a very one-thing-at-a-time deal, even in MC. Though Lassoing is a tool that combines various tasks, which is why I like it. 

    You can set up a bunch of small pop-up monitors and drag sub-sequences into each, or use the top and/or end of your sequence's Tineline as  further "storage" or as a "rehearsal" space where you can experiment and sub-sequence from.

    The pop-ups can reveal their Timeline with the same button that shows the source monitor's Tineline.

    There's a Track lock concept It works on full tracks only.

    I've done lots of gonzo workarounds to aid editing or bypass various limitations... I once made a 30 second stretch of one-frame off-line Add-Edits, just to get a "glide" action while dragging clips around the Timeline.. interesting but ultimately a dead-end. There is a modifier+drag allowing a finer slower clip movement. Forgot which versions have it.

    thats all I got. Someone else will have ideas I bet.

    Good luck!

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  • Tue, Apr 28 2020 8:43 AM In reply to

    Re: workflow without grouping or linking multiple clips on timeline

    One or two more things I forgot to suggest: you can usually get quick results by busting open a gap in your sequence where you are about to lasso; or slice across all your clips with an Add-Edit at back of a chunk of the tineline you intend to move... then go back for the straggly parts afterwards or re-trim them at their new placement.


    Use Add Filler mapped to a key or single-side trim an add-edit in Filler to open the gap,  if you have Synclocks ON in MC6.

    Also, you may know that you can nudge highlighted clips with added modifiers and if you are in Trim Slide mode, you can nudge based on last numeric keypad entry, so if you happen to like 9 frames at a time, you just hit 9 once then Enter repeatedly increments in 9's, for instance.

    another good feature is "Last Trim" or Alt+Trim; and last but not least UNDO can be used as "Do-over" anytime.

    Squeeze v11 EOL-Pro Sony BM2100 Telecine with variable speed controller Casio VL-Tone, CZ-101, LCD watch AJA i/o Express with Express Card Slot Ignite... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Apr 28 2020 8:54 PM In reply to

    • djhg
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    • Joined on Wed, Dec 5 2012
    • Posts 61
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    Re: workflow without grouping or linking multiple clips on timeline

    Thankyou for all of this, Telegram. There's a lot to chew on, but I think you're correct in that grouping as I hope for it isn't available (yet...). A tutorial puts Multi-grouping in the context of grouping multiple cameras - handy but not applicable.

    It's great to read your affirmation of many of the techniques I'm already using. (Sadly "redo" has a bug in the version of 6 I'm using and isn't always available. However the best redo could offer is of course undoing both the correct and incorrect elements of any one action.) Many of the tools you mention were/are available in 6.5. I've leveraged most of those already, and I keep synclocks on in most circumstances.

    FWIW, it's the unbelievably useful scriptsync and FLuildMotion/FluidMorph (though other nles may have similair features to the latter two now) which appear to be MC's big advantage where narrative drama is concerned, at least for the way I work.

     

    MC 6.5.4 AVID-Configured HP Z400, 12GB, Nvida Quadro 2000, Windows 7, ATTO express SAS R680 RAID Adapter, Atto Media00 SCSI Disk Device, Sony FS100, Sony... [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Apr 28 2020 10:14 PM In reply to

    Re: workflow without grouping or linking multiple clips on timeline

    You're welcome. I was thinking that you might have "Workspaces" available on MC6 and if so what about setting one up to launch a custom Timeline view and maximize your ability to select multiple clips. I am content to just use A&S keys for Zoom In and Out and I hit them all the time without looking. 

     

    Squeeze v11 EOL-Pro Sony BM2100 Telecine with variable speed controller Casio VL-Tone, CZ-101, LCD watch AJA i/o Express with Express Card Slot Ignite... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Apr 29 2020 1:44 AM In reply to

    Re: workflow without grouping or linking multiple clips on timeline

    Workspace switching does retain highlighted clips on v2018.12, at least. I made a BIG workspace linked to a BIG timeline view that filled entire screen, with large tracks. So much easier to tweak selected clips.

    Squeeze v11 EOL-Pro Sony BM2100 Telecine with variable speed controller Casio VL-Tone, CZ-101, LCD watch AJA i/o Express with Express Card Slot Ignite... [view my complete system specs]
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