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  • Fri, Nov 28 2014 1:23 PM

    the dongle story chapter 3.

    After almost 20 years of dongle happiness With the release of MC 8 Avid killed the freedom we used to have.

    In the document:

    http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/compatibility/Using-a-Media-Composer-8-0-Symphony-Option-or-NewsCutter-Option-license-to-activate-a-previous-version

    It is clear from the matrix that an mc8 dongle will support 5.5.4 and up. So anything before that can't be activated. I was hoping it would be a case of supported/tested but I just did the test myself an indeed anything before 5.5.4 (and probably some of the early releases of MC 6 and 6.5) do not work.

    While I still use 5.5.5 on my own testing system and do not have an issue I still have customers running MC4 and 3.

    Now I understand that we can't keep backwards compatibility with older versions for ever with software... for example the dongles with interplay, symphony, newscutter oprtions. but in this case it looks we are not dealing with a technological restriction but a commercial one. Why Avid? Why destroy functionality?

    If people are willing to pay $299 to bring there MC2.x, 3.x or 4.x dongle under support why restrain them from using any version they like? What do you gain? All these versions are EOL/EOS anyway so calling support or opening cases is a no go anyway?

    Now I'm aware this is business and not a democracy in which we have a saying. But Avid, can you at least share the policy that is in place explaining if the dongle updates of the next MC versions will not activate MC 5.5, 6 and up? Basically does EOS now also mean EODAS (End Of Dongle Activation Support)?

     

     

    From the old Apple Quadro 950 to HP Z8xx. My current own systems: 1x Z420 E5 1650 32GB memory quadro K2200, 1x XW8600, 2x 3.0Ghz Quadcore, 24GB memory... [view my complete system specs]

    Jeroen van Eekeres 

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    Always have a backup of your projects....Always!!!! Yes Always!!!!

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  • Fri, Nov 28 2014 2:18 PM In reply to

    Re: the dongle story chapter 3.

    I thought the issue was the change in Symphony to an option for MC. So Dongles all became MC dongles (if upgraded) and the symphony element an option. So older systems can't understand the new dongle arrnagement.

    To resolve that AVid would have to roll out updates for all the affected older versions. Can't see that happening.

    Things are moving along and folks need to decide to move with Avid or stay put.

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  • Fri, Nov 28 2014 2:54 PM In reply to

    Re: the dongle story chapter 3.

    MC 2, 3, and 4 run on antiquated OSes that are no longer available, and that makes them hard to support.  Besides, I think we can all agree that MC 5.5 was a pretty sweet spot for stability, reliability and feature set. 

    Media Composer 8.2 Dongle+Symphony Option Win7x64 Pro HP zBook 15" Laptop - 16GB RAM (2nd System) Media Composer 8.2 Dongle+Symphony Option - HP z420... [view my complete system specs]

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    Happy Editing!

  • Fri, Nov 28 2014 3:14 PM In reply to

    Re: the dongle story chapter 3.

    I'd agree support for 5.5.4 is more than far enough back.

    Compared to other software suppliers Avid go way further back.

    HP Z840 3.1GHZ 20cores 128GB RAM M4000 GPU 1TB NVMe drive HP Z book 17 G2 2.7GHZ Quad core 32GB RAM Nvidia K3100M 1TB SSD drive ACI Moderator. I'm... [view my complete system specs]

     

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  • Fri, Nov 28 2014 7:51 PM In reply to

    Re: the dongle story chapter 3.

    If practically going as far back as 5.5 for compatibility is enough is of course a matter of opinion. My problem is not the specific version here.

    If i look at the dongle dump of the mc 3 dongle that was upgraded to mc 8 i see no difference besides the version nr. I want to emphasize this is an mc dongle without any of the new options. Now i understand that looking the same and being compatible 'under the hood' are 2 different things.

    With the introduction of the interplay option it was stated that the interplay option enabled dongles would not be compatible with older versions then 5.5. I was under the impression that the symphony and newscutter option would follow the same philosophy but that was a wrong assumption.

    From what i see it seems avid chose to apply the option incompatibility also for dongles without any option. My question is: why this policy change? And more important: what does this policy change mean for future releases? Eos = Eodas?

    From the old Apple Quadro 950 to HP Z8xx. My current own systems: 1x Z420 E5 1650 32GB memory quadro K2200, 1x XW8600, 2x 3.0Ghz Quadcore, 24GB memory... [view my complete system specs]

    Jeroen van Eekeres 

    Technical director, Broadcast support engineer, Avid ACSR.

     

    Always have a backup of your projects....Always!!!! Yes Always!!!!

    A.V.I.D....... Another Version In Development

    www.mediaoffline.com

     

     

     

  • Fri, Nov 28 2014 8:04 PM In reply to

    Re: the dongle story chapter 3.

    FunkyDragon:
    MC 2, 3, and 4 run on antiquated OSes that are no longer available, and that makes them hard to support. 
    IMO this is not the issue but a red herring.

    For 20 + years Avid has been able to flawlessly run MC dongles with backward and lower version compatibility. (Symphony not so much)

    A MC 7 dongle that yesterday plugged into and ran Avid DV Pro and (on a different CPU) a MCA 1.6 that today, after updating to MC8, wont open either earlier version has nothing to do OS's.  It has IMO to do with a flawed (or deliberately limited) design concept and implementation of the new licencing model.

    I believe it was the planning decision to include Symphony with all Subscription licences whilst keeping it as a "paid option" for existing Perpetual licences that complicated the licencing issues.  

    IMO this could have been solved a number of ways.
    Create a complicated new licence system to cater for Subscription. SA activated MC, software activated MC with Symphony option, dongle activated MC, dongle Activated MC with Symphony option and updated Symphony dongles.

    Or having a Subscription MC and a Subscription MC + Symphony option so the upgrades are the same for Subscription, SA and dongles

    Or simplify the existing (pre MC 8.0) system by dropping the Symphony option and making an MC licences activate the whole of the current MC program (Symphony has always been integrated in it.) Nothing would have had to change. Just download MC activated by Subscription or SA or Dongle. Updating a dongle (with backward compatibility) could then have been even easier than it has been for the last 20+ years. 

     

  • Sat, Nov 29 2014 7:55 AM In reply to

    Re: the dongle story chapter 3.

    AndrewAction:

     It has IMO to do with a flawed (or deliberately limited) design concept and implementation of the new licencing model.

    I believe it was the planning decision to include Symphony with all Subscription licences whilst keeping it as a "paid option" for existing Perpetual licences that complicated the licencing issues.  

    On the risk of braking the rules on speculation...

    I think Avid created the issue with the introduction of the new "support contract version lockdown" model and cancelation of the classic upgrades. Whoever wants to upgrade his MC now HAS TO bring his system under support. But as Avid can only support a limited set of versions from the past, and this is nothing new or problemantic, it is now resulting in a change of the previous sentence. You can only upgrade systems that are still actively supported. (after 31/12/2014).

    This was clearly announced months ago so whether I like it or not Avid made it clear where we were going. Fair enough.

    But now Avid made a second alteration in its policy. Because you buy a support contract Avid will limit you to use only Avid software coverred within that contract, hence new license upgrades will not activate unsupported older versions.

    This is the public EOS info for all Avid products as of 29/11/2014.

    http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/faq/End-of-support-dates

    I conclude that any upgrade bought after 9/7/2015 including dongles will NOT activate MC 6.0 and I would like to have this confirmed by Avid

     

     

     

    From the old Apple Quadro 950 to HP Z8xx. My current own systems: 1x Z420 E5 1650 32GB memory quadro K2200, 1x XW8600, 2x 3.0Ghz Quadcore, 24GB memory... [view my complete system specs]

    Jeroen van Eekeres 

    Technical director, Broadcast support engineer, Avid ACSR.

     

    Always have a backup of your projects....Always!!!! Yes Always!!!!

    A.V.I.D....... Another Version In Development

    www.mediaoffline.com

     

     

     

  • Sat, Nov 29 2014 11:40 AM In reply to

    Re: the dongle story chapter 3.

    And to go a few steps further in my "forbidden" speculations (moderators feel free to intervene).

    What might the next step be in this "negative incentive policy" to upgrade?

    Closure of the software activation servers for MC 3.5, MC 4 and MC 5... maybe even MC 5.5 soon? I'm not suggesting Avid is actively going to disable/close licenses but if your system stops working for whatever reason and you want to de-activate re-activate? "Sorry you'll have to upgrade." is that going to be the answer?

    From the old Apple Quadro 950 to HP Z8xx. My current own systems: 1x Z420 E5 1650 32GB memory quadro K2200, 1x XW8600, 2x 3.0Ghz Quadcore, 24GB memory... [view my complete system specs]

    Jeroen van Eekeres 

    Technical director, Broadcast support engineer, Avid ACSR.

     

    Always have a backup of your projects....Always!!!! Yes Always!!!!

    A.V.I.D....... Another Version In Development

    www.mediaoffline.com

     

     

     

  • Sat, Nov 29 2014 12:15 PM In reply to

    • switthaus
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    Re: the dongle story chapter 3.

    There was a pretty lively discussion about this over on the Avid-L a while back.  I took some heat for saying that Avid should and would wind down backwards compatibility as the subscription model goes forward.  From a company point of view, my opinion is that they (Avid) don't want to have to service older versions (I know an editior point of view is very much different) as it's throwing good R&D resources to fix older versions that might not bring in new revenue. So (again, from an Avid point of view), if you can start limiting the amount of new money going to old (free) fixes, that's a good thing.  More focused R&D and a better bottom line.  They are eventually forcing everyone to get on the latest and greatest.  The subscription model and it's "upgrade or else" message allows the company to start that process and EOL older versions.

    2015 will be an interesting year.

     

     

    Scott Witthaus

    Owner/Editor/Post Production Supervisor 1708 Editorial

    http://vimeopro.com/1708editorial/1708-editorial

  • Sat, Nov 29 2014 1:58 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: the dongle story chapter 3.

    IMO, Avid needs to bravely step away from infinite backwards compatibility FROM A TECHNICAL STANDPOINT.  By that I mean - as they have with audio plugs in v8.x - say "that is it - if you open this sequence in a version before v8, that feature WILL NOT WORK."  There are so many old paradigms buried in the Avid code (the effects stucture!) that need to go.  To move forward they need to abandon some things.

    BUT - There is no reason to say that a license will not fire up an old version.  Some people will be happy to mothball old OS and even hardware to make sure that they can revive an important project.  I can not see a reason for Avid to toss the keys to that car away.  Yes I know there is a hope that doing so would drive people to spend on the new versions.  That is a punishment model, not a reward model.  It won't make any friends.  New, solid features will sell Avid. 

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." 2021 iMac w Big Sur [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

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  • Sat, Nov 29 2014 2:56 PM In reply to

    • TVJohn
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    Re: the dongle story chapter 3.

    I remember when these forums were re organized in 2005 the general recommendation was to remain with the version of Avid that works for you. Upgrade only if the version you have needs something that is part of a new release, or there is a new feature that has value for you. Many members were running Avid a version or two behind.

    This forced feeding could potentially put off the very core of the customer base, if subsequent product revisions are less solid than the previous.

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    Using MC 21.9. Win 21H2  Avid FX6.4, Vegas Pro 19/ DVD Architect 6pro, DVDit6.4proHD, CCE Basic, TmpGe Express4, TmpGe Authoring Works 4, DVDLab-Studio. Sony EX-1R, Canon XH-A1, GL2, GL1, Canon EOS 60D

  • Sat, Nov 29 2014 3:24 PM In reply to

    Re: the dongle story chapter 3.

    I'm not clear here on where customers are being forced?

    So somebody has a Version 4 Avid running on a dongle. It works today despite the OS being EOL and probably the hardware.

    You don't have to do anything. Your dongle dump will show when the dongle will expire (assuming it doesn't hardware fail) It's normally around 60 years from blasting I think.

    There is no support on the hardware, the OS or the MC software. You are running a setup that has probably paid for it's self meny meny times over.

    You can continue like that till something goes bang.

    You can pay the $299 per year to join support and retain and option to upgrade. Basically an insurance policy. No requirement to update that old dongle.

    If you chose to update the dongle to gain V8 functionality then you are moving on from V4.

    I agree backwards support and legacy updates needs to be drawn to a close. The model doesn't work and the whole market place is moving that way. (look at Adobe & Apple) 

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    QC/QAR Training - Understanding Digital Media - Advanced Files * Compression - Avid Ingest - PSE fixing courses and more

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  • Sat, Nov 29 2014 3:47 PM In reply to

    • TVJohn
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    Re: the dongle story chapter 3.

    People are here because they do not like the Adobe and Apple model. It took me a long time to appreciate the way people spoke of MC as "My Avid".

    For many years Avid LED, now the smart thing is to follow?

    The company wiil do what it believes to be in its best interests, of course. I hope it works out for them, lots of great people there...

     

    PS. many of us come from a time when someone offered a service, if you wanted or needed it you paid for it. The payment was a balance of need vs value offered. Today there is a payment required ahead of delivery, on something of a promise of delivery. It certainly removes the pressure of the seller and guarantees income, at least for the short term.

    Sadly many executives only think a couple of quarters ahead..

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  • Sat, Nov 29 2014 5:12 PM In reply to

    Re: the dongle story chapter 3.

    switthaus:
    From a company point of view, my opinion is that they (Avid) don't want to have to service older versions

    Scott, there was always an EOS program which was pretty independand of what a dongle license could activate. Nobody is asking Avid to start developing patches for EOS versions of MC. Of course we all need to move forward.

    Pat Horridge:
    You can continue like that till something goes bang. You can pay the $299 per year to join support and retain and option to upgrade. Basically an insurance policy. No requirement to update that old dongle. If you chose to update the dongle to gain V8 functionality then you are moving on from V4.

    Pat, Continuing until it goes bang is not the desired path in this business. I think we can all agree on that. Your suggested workaround (or should that be called a donothingaround?) to not update your dongle of course works but is more or less pointing out how strange the limitation is that Avid is implementing. Of course using version 4 or older in 2014 could also be considered not the desired path, for sure not for Avid.

    jef:
    There is no reason to say that a license will not fire up an old version. I know there is a hope that doing so would drive people to spend on the new versions.  That is a punishment model, not a reward model. New, solid features will sell Avid.

    Jef. This is part of my point. It's better to replace the negative incentives with positive new features and performance.

    TVJohn:
    remain with the version of Avid that works for you. Upgrade only if there is a new feature that has value for you. This forced feeding could potentially put off the very core of the customer base, if subsequent product revisions are less solid than the previous.

    John. This is another part of the whole problem. Again the new features and performance need to be the reasons for sales improvement.

    Pat,

    From your first post in this thread I conclude that you were also not aware of this new restriction of the new licensing scheme regarding dongle licenses. I assume you make efforts to keep yourself uptodate with all kinds of info you receive from Avid. I can say I try to do so, especially as I see it as a requirement for doing my job as part of the support team of an Avid reseller. I had to learn this by being pointed towards the knowledgebase article by my colleage who was facing activation trouble with an MC 8 dongle a few days ago.

    This lack of clear information up front and insight in a consistent policy, a policy not just based on promises that in the end pops up to have all kinds of traps and uncertainties. A policy that, to use your term, seems to go bang from MC version to version or even from patch to patch. Consistency! That's what I'm asking for.

    Introducing this licensing scheme with its limitiation while the applciation manager is causing lots of trouble since its introduction and is causing support tons of work (and costing money???) is becoming a seriously worrying issue for me. This path leads us... ok that's speculating.

     

     

    From the old Apple Quadro 950 to HP Z8xx. My current own systems: 1x Z420 E5 1650 32GB memory quadro K2200, 1x XW8600, 2x 3.0Ghz Quadcore, 24GB memory... [view my complete system specs]

    Jeroen van Eekeres 

    Technical director, Broadcast support engineer, Avid ACSR.

     

    Always have a backup of your projects....Always!!!! Yes Always!!!!

    A.V.I.D....... Another Version In Development

    www.mediaoffline.com

     

     

     

  • Sat, Nov 29 2014 10:20 PM In reply to

    • jwrl
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    Re: the dongle story chapter 3.

    When Avid first went on the market it wasn't available as a MS-based application at all.  That was understandable, because the OS version for PCs was MS-DOS version 6.  At the same time the Apple platform was (I believe) power PC-based or possibly even 68000-based.  Neither of those platforms are still supported by their original manufacturers.  For that matter try and get hold of Voodoo display card, and if you can find one, good luck finding drivers for it.

    Media has changed too.  Try and buy an ATA hard drive, or any hard drive that isn't at least SATA-based.  Even at that haunt of the computer geek, the swap-meet, they're pretty thin on the ground.  And if you can find them they are definitely unsupported.

    The point is, although I have a lot of issues with Avid as it currently is, I'm not in the least concerned about their back support.  They have performed beyond the call of duty compared to most others selling computer-based products.  Even with this truncation of their support for earlier versions, they're still providing support for 32-bit versions in a 64-bit world.

    If they want to remain in business at some stage Avid have to draw the line.  If you want to run MC4 or even earlier you still can.  But it's unreasonable to expect a level of support that no other software provider is likely to offer.

    (Boy!  Was that a rant or what!)

    MC 7.0.4 - Asus P6T Deluxe V2 mobo - Intel i7 920 2.66GHz - Windows 7 Ult64 SP1 - nVidia Quadro FX 1800 - 16 Gbyte low latency DDR3 RAM - Internal 8 Tb... [view my complete system specs]
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