Latest post Sat, Sep 13 2014 10:39 AM by Job ter Burg. 84 replies.
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  • Thu, Feb 6 2014 5:29 PM In reply to

    • mjolnarn
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    Re: Your views on Frameflex, please

    Jeroen van Eekeres:

    mjolnarn:
    Created some 4k avi clips in AE CC, rendered out as default settings losless and found a limit at about 8 secs of length, above that length I get a QT error message in Avid FX when trying to link to it from inside of Avid.

    Hi Thomas,

    Could you reduce the duration of that clip to about 15 seconds, see if you still have quictime fail, check the size and share that clip with Douglas through Wetransfer/ftp or anything else?

    Thx.

    Will try tomorrow Jeroen, lots of stuff in the pipes

    Mac: 17" Macbook Pro i7 2,66 ghz with 8Gb Ram, 500gb 7200rpm drive___ PC_NEW Win10 Pro Mbo Asus Rampage IV Black CPU Ivy Bridge-E 4960X ( = 12 x 4... [view my complete system specs]

    Tomas 

     

  • Thu, Feb 6 2014 7:26 PM In reply to

    • Wm.Busby
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    Re: Your views on Frameflex, please

    mjolnarn:

    Will try tomorrow Jeroen, lots of stuff in the pipes

    there's laxatives for that you know Wink

    sorry... couldn't resist

    HP Z400 (W3520) 2.67 ghz quad core, 12GB ram, Quadro K2000 (Nvidia driver 310.90), Win 7 Pro 64, MC 5.5.3, Quicktime version 7.6.9, KVM switch, dual 20"... [view my complete system specs]

    Forum etiquette rule #1: FILL OUT SYSTEM SPECS IN PROFILE! :)

  • Thu, Feb 6 2014 9:55 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Your views on Frameflex, please

    Let me take a broad look at the results of this thread so far.

    1. Frameflex, in its present stage of development, is liked by some but is causing serious problems for quite a few others.

    2. As an alternative workflow I can use Avid FX to get the same functions as frameflex

    3. Using Avid FX allows you to adjust more parameters to control the position, opacity etc. of the clip.

    4. Using Avid FX allows you to add any of the 190 BCC filters included in Avid FX to your 4K clip before clicking back to the MC timeline.

    5. Avid FX does need rendering after you click Apply and return to MC. At this stage the limited functions of Frameflex are much quicker because of the integration with AMA.

    6. The integration with AMA is also having some problems which would not occur if Avid FX was used.

    7. Avud FX with the renders? Reminds me of the old saying, "Everybody want to get to heaven - but nobody wants to die"

    8. If you are still on the 32 bit version on MC on a PC, and therefore probably on Avid FX 5.8 you will have no trouble directly linking to 4K mov clips and manipulating them in Avid FX without any conversion before. (I still have a 32 bit version of Avid FX on an older computer and have confirmed this)

    9. If you are on a 64 bit system and on a MAC, you will have no trouble directly linking to 4K mov clips and manipulating them in Avid FX

    10. If you are on a 64 bit PC system, you will have to convert to a suitable AVI format

    11. I have had no problems at all using TMPGEnc Video Mastering Works 5 in converting files in this manner. I describe the whole process in one of my video tutorials from Gaijin-Eyes Tutorials

    12. Having to convert to avi is an unfortunate result of the limitations of 64 bit Quicktime in conjunction with 64 bit MC and 64 bit Avid FX. A well known and fully discussed problem on the Forums. The workaround, when using the correct method, does not result in huge files.I did a quick test just now on a DCI 4K standard clip that I downloaded (4096x2160pixels 603,539KB) file. I converted it with the "superfine" setting in TMPGEnc VMW5. It took 1 minute 33 seconds to render and the final size of the avi file was 1,339,996 KB. However, Superfine gives a bitrate of 759 Mbps (far too high for my usual MC DNxHD 145 projects)  By reducing the bitrate before converting to avi, I can actually get file sizes that are smaller than the original 4K.

    13. If Tomas sends me a file sample I will try my workflow on it. However, as Tomas has a good reputation as a codec expert, I doubt if I will be able to convert his sample file. But I can give it a go.

    14. Finally. My reason for starting this thread was not to start a codec war, it was to show that Avid FX is a strong contender as an already existing working alternative to Frameflex, in its present state of development.

    Anyone who has taken time to look at the demo I posted a few days ago can see that quite clearly.

    Regards

    Douglas

    Director of CSM | Customer Advocate [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Feb 13 2014 1:26 PM In reply to

    • mjolnarn
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    Re: Your views on Frameflex, please

    Jeroen van Eekeres:

    mjolnarn:
    Created some 4k avi clips in AE CC, rendered out as default settings losless and found a limit at about 8 secs of length, above that length I get a QT error message in Avid FX when trying to link to it from inside of Avid.

    Hi Thomas,

    Could you reduce the duration of that clip to about 15 seconds, see if you still have quictime fail, check the size and share that clip with Douglas through Wetransfer/ftp or anything else?

    Thx.

    Just took me the time to upload a clip.

    www.limpans.com/downloads/AVID/4kupscaled/00019_15s.zip

    It´s not an origin 4k clip although shot with a FS 700 and it´s 4k sensor, it´s downprocessed in the cam to 1920x1080 and Sonys own Avchd codec and was originally shot to test the cam in some difficult light conditions, for those interested in this cam the lowest built in filter was used.

    Upscaling in AE CC made by BCC Uprez and deinterlacing done by BCC deinterlace.

    Rendered out as AE default loosless.

    I cannot load this clip in Avid FX from inside of Avid even on my 64 gig ram system, a quicktime error comes up.

    Same error in AE and using Red btw.

    I guess it´s a 64 bits Quicktime limitation as already said.

    To use lowresolution codecs might be possible but that´ll sort of disqualize the purpose with 4K that is to get as good quality as possible.

    Mac: 17" Macbook Pro i7 2,66 ghz with 8Gb Ram, 500gb 7200rpm drive___ PC_NEW Win10 Pro Mbo Asus Rampage IV Black CPU Ivy Bridge-E 4960X ( = 12 x 4... [view my complete system specs]

    Tomas 

     

  • Thu, Feb 13 2014 3:21 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Your views on Frameflex, please

    Thank you for the chance to download your file, Tomas

    I put it through  the same procedure that I have been using all along and had no trouble in using it in MC, via Avid FX, using the same workflow that I showed Jeroen a few days ago.

    Then I panned all over the snowy scene.

    Right now it is after midnight here in Japan, so I am going to hit the futon now.

    I will post a short screen capture of me adding your clip to MC tomorrow forenoon.

    Regards

    Douglas

    ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    Director of CSM | Customer Advocate [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Feb 13 2014 4:22 PM In reply to

    • mjolnarn
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    Re: Your views on Frameflex, please

    drbgaijin:

    I put it through  the same procedure that I have been using all along

    Nice that is was useful Douglas but your answer is somewhat cryptical, does " same procedure " mean an encoding of that Avi file to a file with a lower quality or are you able to link to my uploaded file as it is.

    A short yes or no will do well as an answer.

    Mac: 17" Macbook Pro i7 2,66 ghz with 8Gb Ram, 500gb 7200rpm drive___ PC_NEW Win10 Pro Mbo Asus Rampage IV Black CPU Ivy Bridge-E 4960X ( = 12 x 4... [view my complete system specs]

    Tomas 

     

  • Fri, Feb 14 2014 11:49 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Your views on Frameflex, please

    mjolnarn:
    A short yes or no will do well as an answer

    I guess that my answer is " No, No"

    However let me look closer at 1.

    mjolnarn:
    does " same procedure " mean an encoding of that Avi file to a file with a lower quality
    If that isn't cryptic, then what is? Geeked
    My answer is definitely No.
    While we are talking about quality, I was surprised that your file had a bitrate of 4,977 Mbps! The highest bitrates I have found for 4K are around 600 - 800 Mbps. Either you have made a mistake when you encoded, or you are guilty of extreme overkill.

    2.

    mjolnarn:
    are you able to link to my uploaded file as it is.
    No. Your avi file is encoded in a format that is not recognised by Avid FX. In fact, Media Info showed a codec ID of "0x0000000" I have no idea what that means. Maybe it means no special codec used. You need to use a recognised codec for Avid FX.

    Yes I encoded your file to an avi file that is recognised by Avid FX.

    Your file was 3840x2160 pixels.  My file was 3840x2160 pixels - in other words the same resolution.
    Your file had a bitrate of 4,977 Mbps, mine had a bitrate of 730 Mbps - within the normal range for 4K
    Your file had a "strange" codec, my file used Canopus CHQX codec, a codec recognised by Avid FX
    Your file did not work with Avid FX, my file did work.

    Not much more to add

    Regards

    Douglas

     

     

     

    Director of CSM | Customer Advocate [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Feb 17 2014 8:56 AM In reply to

    • mjolnarn
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    Re: Your views on Frameflex, please

    Hi Douglas, out mobile so not much to test on, thank´s for clarifying what codec you are encoding to and I´ll try that Edius codec later on, also noticed that it is 10 bits, a must for the usage together with 4k that are aiming towards even higher values, 12 bits out of the FS 700 through SDI is already there and 16 bits precision is used in some cams and recordersbut from what I´ve been told 12 bits mght be the coming standard for 4k, this could change of course.

    The strange and mysterious no codec you saw when using the default settings in AE was just that, no codec aka uncompressed and if you consider that the 1080 bitrates for uncompressed 10 bits quicktime out of Avid s about 1100 mbps 4k Uc should be about that above mentioned 4 gbps + speed I think, up to 5 secs of it links well in Red / Avid FX but above that you´ll get a QT engine error message.

    Maybe Boris have something in the pipes for us regarding 4k, I guess time will tell, we also need to be able to work with at least 10 bits precision to not risk bandings, the reason for me to use AE was that it works both with 16 and 32 bits precision.

    Avid and Ama can handle all those files out of AE, maybe you already have noticed that by ama link my posted file.

    So, if the Edius 600 mbps 4K codec is of enough high quality to avoid codec degenarion loss and banding is up to users to test and try I guess if they want to use Avid FX on 4K media, I do know that Avid can handle AE loosless exports using ama and Avid FX cannot so maybe or maybe not we will get some coming upgrades from Boris to be able to use Red / Avid FX on 4K also on AE exports

    Time will tell and I´m in no rush myself, my FS 700 shoots splendid 1080 and with the 3,01 firmware update I´ll get 1080 10 bits precision out of the SDI to my hyperdeck shuttle, perfect in my low light indoor shots the day I need it.

    Posting two links about the current status for the FS 700 and 4k, Sonys own and Convergient designs Oddysey 7Q to show something of what is coming, there is also some discussions about 16 12 10 bits precision in those videos,  just to wait for better (lower) price now, no hurry as said.

    Sony AXS-R5    http://vimeo.com/83168895

    Oddysey 7Q     http://vimeo.com/82442001

     

     

     

      

     

         

    Mac: 17" Macbook Pro i7 2,66 ghz with 8Gb Ram, 500gb 7200rpm drive___ PC_NEW Win10 Pro Mbo Asus Rampage IV Black CPU Ivy Bridge-E 4960X ( = 12 x 4... [view my complete system specs]

    Tomas 

     

  • Mon, Feb 17 2014 9:51 AM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Your views on Frameflex, please

    mjolnarn:
    So, if the Edius 600 mbps 4K codec is of enough high quality to avoid codec degenarion loss and banding is up to users to test and try I guess if they want to use Avid FX on 4K media,

    Very generous of you, Tomas

    Thank you

    Regards

    Douglas

    Director of CSM | Customer Advocate [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Feb 17 2014 10:58 AM In reply to

    • mjolnarn
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    Re: Your views on Frameflex, please

    Hi Douglas, not so much to thank for, I just wanted users to be aware of what to look for / worst case and also make them aware of that there might be quality losses when using Avid FX instead of Avid Ama if codec and workflows aren´t correct or maybe, with some codecs, not even possible to use with Avid FX.

     

    Mac: 17" Macbook Pro i7 2,66 ghz with 8Gb Ram, 500gb 7200rpm drive___ PC_NEW Win10 Pro Mbo Asus Rampage IV Black CPU Ivy Bridge-E 4960X ( = 12 x 4... [view my complete system specs]

    Tomas 

     

  • Tue, Feb 18 2014 7:11 AM In reply to

    • mjolnarn
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    Re: Your views on Frameflex, please

    Arrived home now and installed that Edius codec for some comparing tests, possible to use in AE so I rendered out a 50 secs 4k clip.

    When ama linking into Avid it gives me a black screen - no codec so not possible to do any comparing tests, sorry, you might want to find another codec Douglas especially if you are going to create tutorials, users might want to use the outside of Avid prepared 4k media also directly through ama and not only from inside of Boris. 

    Mac: 17" Macbook Pro i7 2,66 ghz with 8Gb Ram, 500gb 7200rpm drive___ PC_NEW Win10 Pro Mbo Asus Rampage IV Black CPU Ivy Bridge-E 4960X ( = 12 x 4... [view my complete system specs]

    Tomas 

     

  • Tue, Feb 18 2014 7:48 AM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Your views on Frameflex, please

    mjolnarn:
    Arrived home now and installed that Edius codec for some comparing tests,

    mjolnarn:
    When ama linking into Avid it gives me a black screen - no codec so not possible to do any comparing tests, sorry, you might want to find another codec Douglas

    I am sorry, Tomas

    I have not been able to follow your "reasoning", or your interest in "doing some comparing tests"

    Why do I need to find another codec?  The one I use works for me.

    I am using Avid FX together with 3840x2160 avi files to do the same panning that you can do with frameflex. In addition I can add any other effects that are found in Avid FX, without problems or side effects.

    I am doing this

    I don't care if you can do it or not. That is not the point.

    Let me repeat the following, that I wrote earlier in this thread

    According to scientists bumble bees cannot fly as their body to wingspan ratio is wrong/ because they cannot beat their wings quickly enough/ because their aerodynamic shape is wrong etc. etc.
    Bumble bees don't understand science - so they fly anyway! I must be a bumble bee using Avid FX
    Geeked

    I am a happy bumble bee.

    Bbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

    Douglas

     

    Director of CSM | Customer Advocate [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Feb 18 2014 8:28 AM In reply to

    • mjolnarn
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    Re: Your views on Frameflex, please

    drbgaijin:

    Why do I need to find another codec?  The one I use works for me.

    I am using Avid FX together with 3840x2160 avi files to do the same panning that you can do with frameflex. In addition I can add any other effects that are found in Avid FX, without problems or side effects.

    I am doing this

    I don't care if you can do it or not. That is not the point.

    Ok, sorry, I thought I saw something about creating tutorials earlier but I might have been mistaken.

    Of course what works for you is good for you and if you never is going to use ama, you don´t like it as you have said in several other posts, you have to find another workflow that works for you of course even if it disqualifies the use of Avid Ama

    Mac: 17" Macbook Pro i7 2,66 ghz with 8Gb Ram, 500gb 7200rpm drive___ PC_NEW Win10 Pro Mbo Asus Rampage IV Black CPU Ivy Bridge-E 4960X ( = 12 x 4... [view my complete system specs]

    Tomas 

     

  • Wed, Feb 19 2014 1:19 AM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Your views on Frameflex, please

    mjolnarn:
    Ok, sorry, I thought I saw something about creating tutorials earlier but I might have been mistaken.

    No need to apologise, Tomas
    I did mention a sort of tutorial. But only to show what I was doing to get the pan in 4K to work using Avid FX.
    A sort of mini demo. I have now made it and it can be viewed from my site HERE

    There is the original demo I did a week or so again, then below it is the new demo.

    In the new demo I show mysteps in Avid FX to make the panning work.
    I use your clip, after I have transcoded it to an acceptable avi version that can be used by Avid FX.

    And before you ask - NO! I am not gathering private information about visitors to my site to leak to any government authority Geeked But I do have a perfectly open and legal Website statistics application - StatCounter - which helps me develop my site according to the information I get from it.

    If anyone would like a downloadable version of the demo tutorial, they can find information on the page on my site.

    Hopefully I, the bumblebee, can now take a short rest  Big Smile and then get back to my normal tutorials

    Regards

    Douglas

    Director of CSM | Customer Advocate [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Feb 19 2014 7:25 AM In reply to

    • mjolnarn
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    Re: Your views on Frameflex, please

    Got my cam back from Sony GB yesterday Douglas, now just to collect the money for an Hd recorder to maybe give you a better sample instead of an upscaled one.

    We like the Boris filters both of us and what they can do for us, I just wanted to test if this was something that could be used in a commercial payed workflow and for short clips I see no quality differences between Frameflex and Avid FX, ( this also as info for other users, so 15 secs works Jeroen .. ) I upscaled 100 % yesterday ( so actually 8K ) to find out if there was any quality differences and I saw none.

    I however tested also on a 52 secs clip and Avid FX, when rendering it to the very end without any errors and using that Edius codec for source, the frame freezed after about 34 secs so the last part of the clip didn´t show as it was just the froozen frame that was shown.

    Maybe it´s my old test system with only 8 gigs of ram that limits this but I can render a 5 minutes FF clip rendered out of AE as 4K UC on this 8 gigs of ram system without any problems.

    I guessed on a Windows 64 bits Quicktime limitation earlier remember, maybe you could check or at least be aware of this if you are using this workflow.

     

    Mac: 17" Macbook Pro i7 2,66 ghz with 8Gb Ram, 500gb 7200rpm drive___ PC_NEW Win10 Pro Mbo Asus Rampage IV Black CPU Ivy Bridge-E 4960X ( = 12 x 4... [view my complete system specs]

    Tomas 

     

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