Someone help me!  I apparently departed reality either by becoming incredibly stupid over night, or I passed through the looking glass into a marketing wonderland – or whackyland – where reality just does not apply.

Blackmagic Designs DeckLink Extreme – connects to PCIe bus, SD/HD-SDI, HDMI, AES/EBU, NTSC/PAL Component, Composite and Y/C, 3 Gb/sec SDI support, 3D LUTs for 2K, HDCAM, HDCAM-SR, D5, HDV, RS-422 deck control QuickTime and DirectShow compatible - $995.

Blackmagic Designs Multibridge Eclipse - Same as above with 16 channels of audio instead of 8, plus dual-link 4:4:4 support, breakout box instead of “octopus cable”, can function as standalone up/down/cross converter as well as capture/playback hardware - $2,795.

Matrox AXIO LE – connects to PCIe bus. Full-resolution, mixed-format, multi-layer HD / SD, native MXF file support for Panasonic P2, Sony XDCAM, and Sony XDCAM HD, native codec support for uncompressed, MPEG-2 I-frame, DVCPRO HD, MPEG HD, HDV 1080i, HDV1080p, HDV 720p (JVC ProHD), IMX, DVCPRO50, DV, DVCPRO, DVCAM, 24 fps editing in HD and SD with pull down, reverse pull down, and Panasonic VariCam support, Realtime high-quality downscaling from HD to SD, accelerated export to DVD, multimedia formats including Flash Video, WYSIWYG for Adobe After Effects, Bridge, and Photoshop, Autodesk Combustion and 3ds Max, eyeon Fusion, NewTek LightWave 3D, and Windows Media Player, DV-1394, composite, Y/C, HD/SD analog component, and HD/SD SDI, and professional audio input and output - $3,995.

 AJA Xena 2Ke – connects to PCIe bus, SD/HD-SDI, Dual Link SD and HD-SDI 4:4:4, and 4:4:4:4, 2K HSDL,12-bit HD component and SD component/composite analog output, 10-bit up-/down-/cross conversion, 8-channel 48K AES, and 8-channel embedded audio, native support for uncompressed DPX, Cineon, TGA, TIFF, BMP, YUV, AVI and QuickTime files, 2K frame format support, LUT support, RS-422 machine control, Windows compatible - $2,795.

 AJA Kona 3 – connects to PCIe bus, SD/HD-SDI, Dual Link HD-SDI 4:4:4, and 4:4:4:4, 2K, Apple ProRes 422 and, Apple ProRes 422 HQ, DVCProHD hardware acceleration, HDV hardware acceleration, 10-bit up-/cross-/down conversion, 12-bit HD component and SD component/composite analog output, 10-bit HD/SD video/key output, internal HD/SD live hardware keyer, 8-channel 24-bit AES and 16-channel embedded audio, RS-422 machine control, Intel-Mac / QuickTime compatible - $2,995.

AJA IO/HD – connects to IEEE-1394 port on Intel-Mac machines.  Apple ProRes 422 and Apple ProRes 422 HQ codec, SD, HD 720/1080, full-raster 10 bit 4:2:2, realtime, in hardware, up/down/cross-conversion, 10-bit, realtime, in hardware, SD/HD-SDI (2), Component I/O (SD and HD), Composite and S-video, HDMI video w/8-channel audio, embedded SDI 8-channel audio, AES/EBU 8-channel unbalanced audio, analog 4-channel balanced audio (XLR), analog 2-channel unbalanced audio output (RCA), genlock with loop-through, RS-422 machine control, LTC Timecode I/O - $3,495.

MOTU V3HD – connects to IEEE-1394 port on Windows or Mac machines.  DVCPRO / DVCPRO HD codec, SD, HD 720/1080, full-raster 4:2:2, realtime, in hardware, up/down/cross-conversion,  realtime, in hardware, SD/HD-SDI, Component I/O (SD and HD), Composite and S-video, HDMI video w/8-channel audio, embedded SDI 8-channel audio, AES/EBU 8-channel unbalanced audio, analog 4-channel balanced audio (XLR), or 8 channel (multi-pin port) analog 2-channel unbalanced audio output (RCA), genlock with loop-through, optical 8-channel audio to 96 KHz, 192 KHz surround sound, RS-422 machine control, LTC Timecode I/O - $3,495.

 Avid MojoDX – connects to PCIe bus.  SD / HD-SDI I/O (combined connector), HDMI output,  Reference Sync Black Burst and HD TriLevel input (combined connector), 8 channels SD-SDI embedded digital audio I/O, 8 channels HD-SDI embedded digital audio input, 16 channels HD-SDI embedded digital audio output, 2 channels optical S/PDIF digital audio I/O, 8 channels optical ADAT digital audio I/O, 2 channels XLR analog audio output, 2 channels 1/4" TRS analog audio I/O - $7,995!!

Avid NitrisDX – connects to PCIe bus.  Avid DNxHD codec in hardware for real-time transcoding on capture or playback, SD / HD-SDI I/O, HDMI output, SD / HD component, S-Video and Composite I/O, reference sync Black Burst and HD TriLevel input (combined connector) with loop-through, 8 channels AES/EBU digital audio I/O (on DB25 connector), 8 channels SD / HD-SDI embedded digital audio I/O, 16 channels HD-SDI embedded digital audio output, 2 channels optical S/PDIF digital audio I/O, 8 channels optical ADAT digital audio I/O,   4 channels XLR analog audio I/O, 2 channels RCA analog audio input, 2 channels 1/4¨ TRS audio output, LTC XLR I/O - $12,500!!

What is the additional “bang for buck” that drives DNX hardware prices between 200% and 400% of the equivalents from other vendors?

 Then there is this:

 Xpress Pro users get to upgrade to MC 3.0 for $495.  But for existing MC users who purchased before 01/08, the cost will be standard upgrade pricing ($995) plus 25% of a yearly service contract fee penalty, plus the normal service contract fee. If I recall that is $2,000 per year for the service contract, so existing users with no service contract will pay $995 + 1.25*2,000 = $3,495!?!  And the standalone new software purchase price is $2,495!!

Help me out here, please!  In my addled state it appears “New Thinking” is really “No Thinking” or a poorly disguised scheme to drive existing Avid users to other vendors.  What am I missing?

 Am I really the crazy one – or is it Avid marketing?

wmcole:

Xpress Pro users get to upgrade to MC 3.0 for $495.  But for existing MC users who purchased before 01/08, the cost will be standard upgrade pricing ($995) plus 25% of a yearly service contract fee penalty, plus the normal service contract fee. If I recall that is $2,000 per year for the service contract, so existing users with no service contract will pay $995 + 1.25*2,000 = $3,495!?!  And the standalone new software purchase price is $2,495!!

Is this true? I upgraded in Oct 2007 from Xpress Pro to MC Soft paying €2700 and I feel miserable as it is with the current €450 upgrade price...

wmcole:

What is the additional “bang for buck” that drives DNX hardware prices between 200% and 400% of the equivalents from other vendors?

Time savings in workflow. How many real time streams can you output to tape using the Decklink, Axio, Io HD, etc.?

Oh that's right, it's FCP so you have to render for top quality output of even one stream of HD. How much is your time worth? If nothing, then you should go FCP.

Then there is the media management issue. There are still folks on the FCP-L complaining about lost renders. That little issue cost me 8 hours of rerendering after telling the very high profile clients they would have to come back.

You still get what you pay for, but Avid marketing is incapable of educating the market as to what that value is. You are an example of that failing on their part.

TCurren:

wmcole:

What is the additional “bang for buck” that drives DNX hardware prices between 200% and 400% of the equivalents from other vendors?

Then there is the media management issue. There are still folks on the FCP-L complaining about lost renders. That little issue cost me 8 hours of rerendering after telling the very high profile clients they would have to come back.

Media Management issues have nothing to do with the hardware.  Avid software already costs more than other NLEs because of things like media management, so what does the cost of the boxes have to do with any of that?

SandmanX82:

Media Management issues have nothing to do with the hardware.  Avid software already costs more than other NLEs because of things like media management, so what does the cost of the boxes have to do with any of that?

It's all part of the same package. If you want to compare Apples to Apples. How else can you get a bearing on the value to you as an end user? You can't separate the hardware from the software at this point as that is the only hardware Avid supports.

You have about a 2.5 markup over the AJA / FCP combos. Is the media management worth that to you or not? 

TCurren:

SandmanX82:

Media Management issues have nothing to do with the hardware.  Avid software already costs more than other NLEs because of things like media management, so what does the cost of the boxes have to do with any of that?

It's all part of the same package. If you want to compare Apples to Apples. How else can you get a bearing on the value to you as an end user? You can't separate the hardware from the software at this point as that is the only hardware Avid supports.

You have about a 2.5 markup over the AJA / FCP combos. Is the media management worth that to you or not? 

But the point is, the markup already occurs in the SOFTWARE.  FCP and Adobe costs half as much and comes with much more in terms of programs, but Avid can justify the increase in price because of things like media management.  So media management issues are already payed for.  We already payed for it's convenience and it's benefits when we paid more for the software.  You get the same media management whether you add on the hardware or not, so media management has NOTHING to do with the hardware.

We could argue the point all day, but let us just say you are right. The hardware is separate.

How much is having the ability to play out 6 streams of HD in RT worth to you? I'd like to see you do 2 streams of HD played out in RT on FCP. With ANY card added.

But back to our argument, Avid has stated that they have interwoven the processing between the CPU, GPU and the DX boxes. In the case of the Nitris, the compression and decompression of media happens on the BOB and comes back for effects processing. Because they have a fast throughput on the PCI card, they can pull this off. So if you are working in any format other than uncompressed, there is an added speed bump that other solutions listed in the first post in this thread don't give you.

How you can separate that from the software I don't know. It isn't like the DX boxes work with FCP.

TCurren:

We could argue the point all day, but let us just say you are right. The hardware is separate.

How much is having the ability to play out 6 streams of HD in RT worth to you? I'd like to see you do 2 streams of HD played out in RT on FCP. With ANY card added.

But back to our argument, Avid has stated that they have interwoven the processing between the CPU, GPU and the DX boxes. In the case of the Nitris, the compression and decompression of media happens on the BOB and comes back for effects processing. Because they have a fast throughput on the PCI card, they can pull this off. So if you are working in any format other than uncompressed, there is an added speed bump that other solutions listed in the first post in this thread don't give you.

How you can separate that from the software I don't know. It isn't like the DX boxes work with FCP.

I wasn't saying you could completely separate it from the software.  If it speeds things up that have to do specifically with the software, then obviously you can't.  My only point had to do specifically with media management that you brought up, which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Is it worth it to me for the speed boost?  Personally, no.  I would gladly pay more for it, but not that much more.  Kind of the same thinking I have with Symphony.  Should symphony cost more than Media Composer?  Absolutely.  To me, it's worth more.  Is it worth $20,000 more?  Absolutely not.  Secondary color correction and universal mastering is not worth tens of thousands of dollars to me.  But these are just my opinions, which I guess don't really matter, since I use what my boss buys.

SandmanX82:

Is it worth it to me for the speed boost? 

YES.

Nitris DX - 5 streams of realtime HD (DNxHD; green/green) playback, yes well worth it.  I suppose if you don't plan on working in HD anytime soon then it's not worth the price. 

Haze:

SandmanX82:

Is it worth it to me for the speed boost? 

 

YES.

Nitris DX - 5 streams of realtime HD (DNxHD; green/green) playback, yes well worth it.  I suppose if you don't plan on working in HD anytime soon then it's not worth the price. 

I do HD jobs now.  I can continue to get along fine.  Those who use Final Cut, who according to some people here can't do realtime anything, get along fine...so I guess I can too.

Haze:

Nitris DX - 5 streams of realtime HD (DNxHD; green/green) playback, yes well worth it.  I suppose if you don't plan on working in HD anytime soon then it's not worth the price. 

Thats all you have been saying... I have  realy good friends as Editors who cut alot for History channel and Military channel. Using only FCP. And looking at how many post houes have switched to FCP and are switching to FCP I think saying "5 streams of realtime HD (DNxHD; green/green) playback"  is really who cares. I would rather much Have system and box that lets me capture and out put what I want. Not so limited.

creativethinker:

 I would rather much Have system and box that lets me capture and out put what I want.

We all have different needs.   The perfect I/O for you might not work so well for editor cutting in the room next door.  For my specific needs I appreciate the multiple HD streams.  I do a lot of spot work which requires a lot of tracks stacked up, a "tall timeline" as they say.  Having only one stream of HD is too restrictive IMO.  Regarding the History and Military channels.  Long form documentary work for the most part.  This type of work doesn't require multiple streams of realtime playback,  I can understand that your friends couldn't care less about multiple realtime streams.   

Everybody wants something different.  Unfortunately, there's no "one size fits all" solution.

Have you tried all the cards mentioned with FCP, Premiere Pro etc.?  Did you know they can do multi-streams of RT up to 2K with appropriate CPU / GPU at prices LESS THAN MojoDX - and provide RT analog monitoring (native and downconverted which MojoDX apparently does not supply)?  Did you know that all these cards provide monitoring for any QuickTime / DirectShow compatible application (Pshop, AE, Encore, LightWave 3D Studio Max, Combustion ....)?  Is this not a "timesaver" as valuable - or more so - than the single NitrisDX example you sited?  And I didn't even mention the $995 Edius Broadcast that allows all/anny formats to be mixed in the same timeline with automatic letter/pillar-boxing (i.e. no operator intervention required) IN REAL-TIME based on the timeline's format?  Is this not a timesaver over Avid?  Admittedly Edius Broadcast does not yet have HD-SDI I/O and still uses PCI bus hardware, but it handles all formats including AVC-Intra, and the Infinity JPEG2000. For $995.

So I still haven't seen ANY logical explanation for the DX hardware pricing, let alone the software  upgrade pricing for MC owners who purchased before 01/08 and do not have a service contract.  You still have not addressed my dillema - am I nuts or is it Avid Marketing?

Well I do agree Bill that Avid is still not in a position to compete in the low end of our business. However, from the point of view of a production facility, Avid has one very huge advantage over  the other system you mention and that is support. Especially now that the new execs are straightening things out. The ability to pick up a phone and get support for anything from a dead system to how to make a dissolve is a big deal for most of us out here. These forums are invaluable to a lot of us. My personal experience with FCP and Adobe are no where near the level of comfort we have with avid support. Just try calling Apple with a FCP question. You can't. Edius support? Worse than Avid's on a Avid's worst day.

I realize that Avid needs to get their support contract prices in line with the market but, hopefully, that will happen soon. 

So, for us, the incredible power of these new boxes coupled with all the support we receive on the back end makes the price of the Nitris box worth it. I think the Mojo DX is a very poorly thought out offering but we'll have to see where that thing goes when it's released.

wmcole:

Have you tried all the cards mentioned with FCP, Premiere Pro etc.?  Did you know they can do multi-streams of RT up to 2K with appropriate CPU / GPU at prices LESS THAN MojoDX

Can't talk to Premiere Pro, but I can with FCP. I have several FCP systems and no, you cannot get RT HD multiple streams with quality. You can get the draft modes to do that, but you would get your master bounced from QC.