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  • Wed, May 25 2011 4:24 AM In reply to

    • jwrl
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Joe M:
    I did not think some of the questions would need futher evaluating.
    From my own (bitter) experience, in software development and debugging it's surprising how easily some things can get overlooked.

    Or putting it another way, a bug is only ever obvious after it's been found.

    MC 7.0.4 - Asus P6T Deluxe V2 mobo - Intel i7 920 2.66GHz - Windows 7 Ult64 SP1 - nVidia Quadro FX 1800 - 16 Gbyte low latency DDR3 RAM - Internal 8 Tb... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Jun 4 2011 1:32 AM In reply to

    • Cagey
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Dave Avid PM:

    Guys,

     

    These are all excellent questions and important.  I'll get you the answers, but this means I will pull engineering off of a critical project that is due at the end of this month to get the answers right.  So, given that I'll need some time (week or two).  There is a lot here to be answered and I'll have to get experts from the codec and player team involved.

     

    Dave 

    Didn't want this to slip through the cracks.  Can you please update on this request?

    MC8.6.1, Z420 Xeon E5-2670, 32GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1080, DIGI002, Win 10 Pro 64-bit [view my complete system specs]

    There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those that get binary, and those that don't.

  • Sat, Jun 4 2011 12:58 PM In reply to

    • fiendish
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    jwrl:

    surprising how easily some things can get overlooked.

    Or putting it another way, a bug is only ever obvious after it's been found.

    You're quite right mate, however, I can't help that feeling that Avid must know the answers to theses questions.

    10 bit capability across the board is a key feature of any professional NLE. Not to mention the fact that a fully 10 bit pipeline is mandatory for the majority of broadcast HD delivery.

    i7-2600k Home Build - MC 7.0.6 / 8GB RAM xw8600 Dual Quad 3ghz - MC 5.0.4. on Win 7 x64 with Mojo SDI - 12gb RAM / Quadro 3500 and 3ware 9650SE Raid 5... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Jun 5 2011 9:44 AM In reply to

    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Okay, but it's not that simple. It appears the problem may be with 10 bit Quicktime files. This is a very specific subset of ten bit workflows.

    The problem with file based workflows is, FWIU, that other than maybe DPX, there is no standard that is widely used and plays properly on everyones systems.

    QT was never meant to be a wrapper for acquisition or file transfer between post production applications. It is way too inconsistent. There is a mind numbing combination of color levels, gammas and bit depths replete with defaults and overrides that make QT a bloody mess.

    So if Avid has a problem doing ten bits from QT files, it's not really all that surprising. It's a rather hackneyed workflow that only the latest crop of recorders and cameras is making more common place.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Sun, Jun 5 2011 11:43 AM In reply to

    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    BobbyMurcerFan,

    QT is possibly flawed, but the question remains: How are we supposed to pass 10 bit media to and from other applications like Nuke, Smoke, After Affects, and others?

    Symphony 7.06 OS 10.9.5 QT 7.6.3 Mac Pro 2x2.66 6-core 32GB Ram Aja Kona 3. MC 7.0.6 OS 10.9.5 Mac Pro 5.1 2x2.97 6-core 14GB ram Aja I/O express, Apple... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Jun 5 2011 12:40 PM In reply to

    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Hopefully Avid will answer this question (I quite simply don't have one).

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Sun, Jun 5 2011 6:11 PM In reply to

    • C.A.M.
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Not true. The blackmagic codecs, pro-res, cineform, AJA and other codecs have no such issues when passing material from NLEs to other applications.

    This is a crucial element of modern post production workflow. Has been for some time. Would not call it specific subset. It is status quo and a near universal workflow. And it is a very reasonable expectation that 10bit codecs operate properly as such when compare to nearly all others. 

    Managing single files is much different than managing tiff or DPX sequences.

    Either the codec works as it is advertised or it doesn't.

    Even within the application Composer makes a big deal of operating in 10bit. A trick which cannot be done in MC soft. It retards effects, has a special mode you must remember for the timeline and only works program side. Doesn't support import of 10bit codecs other than theirs. Talk about hackneyed. 

    If Avid has a problem with QT they need to derive another method. Perhaps some sort of MXF creation engine that can be plugged into 3rd party applications. 

    I still have my doubt about forced exports in the X codecs and round trips to other applications. Just have not had time to test further. 

     

    BobbyMurcerFan:

    QT was never meant to be a wrapper for acquisition or file transfer between post production applications. It is way too inconsistent. There is a mind numbing combination of color levels, gammas and bit depths replete with defaults and overrides that make QT a bloody mess.

    So if Avid has a problem doing ten bits from QT files, it's not really all that surprising. It's a rather hackneyed workflow that only the latest crop of recorders and cameras is making more common place.

     

    Symphony Nitris DX, Composer Nitris DX, MC Soft [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jun 6 2011 7:30 PM In reply to

    • C.A.M.
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Here is a snapshot from today's run in with the 10bit confusion.

    Exporting a sequence from Avid with CUSTOM SETTINGS. Need to force a timeline full of various 10bit sources to DNXHD 175X. The timeline is in 10bit mode and my effect rendering is for 16bit.

    While I can select the Avid 175X 10 bit Preset from the drop down menu in the quicktime codec selection box the bit depth selection box does not allow me to choose trillions of colors.

    So, I am not sure this is really a 10bit export. After Effects does report the footage to be Trillions of Colors in its file label but that is really just a flag it is reading for the container. Looks to me this stuff is 8bit with a lot of false contouring and such. Looks very poor compared to what I see on our video monitor and the program side winodw on the computer LCD monitor.

    Anyone know what is really happening here?

    This is also a situation where a TIF or DPX sequence will not help as the next stop for these files are in applications and processes which do not support them.

    ADDITIONAL INFO

    Need to add that I have not done any really testing due to time. All my observations are subjective.

    **My biggest curiousity is the operation of 10bit codecs exporting from Composer via custom export for compression or graphic design AND the creation of Avid friendly 10bit quicktime based material via render from After Effects and other means***

     

     

    Symphony Nitris DX, Composer Nitris DX, MC Soft [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Jun 6 2011 7:46 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Let me shake the trees a bit.  

    I know the codec peeps are committed to other engineering activities which explains why they havent posted  but I will see if I can get some traction. 

    Marianna

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  • Thu, Jun 9 2011 1:49 AM In reply to

    • C.A.M.
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    In the interest of full disclosure, some of the false contouring I am seeing while working with real footage may be due to its nature and 709 to RGB export remapping. HOWEVER, I have experimented with a combination of methods, resolutions and levels. While working with real content is not as thorough or objective as working with test material it has uncovered a few curious things. 

    SO. I tested some paths via some simple animated radial gradients created in After Effects via 16bit comps with 32bit fx.

    First, out of After Effects to Symphony DX 10bit 1080p 23.98 timeline, in order of best results to worst.

    TIF sequence imported at 1:1p 10b. Results great. Believe this to be 10bit material.

    TIF sequence imported at 175X. Results good. Believe this to be 10bit material.

    175x quicktime imported at 175x. Results OK to fair. This appears to be 10bit. Was able to select trillions of colors. There is some slight horizontal banding in transitional areas. But it does not appear to be bit depth related. They are areas of very faint, packed stripes in wide bands. Barely visible but they do cause image slighty stability issues when viewed on a CRT monitor. Not sure what is happening here but it is odd. Not sure this would occur in a different DNX resolution or frame rate.

    1:1packed quicktime imported at 1:1p 10b. Results HORRIFIC!. Lots of banding. Could not select a trillions of colors option in After Effects. But this is more than an 8bit vs 10bit issue as these results look far worse than when viewing my AE comp in 8bit mode with 8bit fx. Somethiing bad is happening here. Unusable.

    1:1x quicktime imported at 1:1p 10b. Same as above.

    175 quicktime imported at 175. Results bad. Looks similar to the above. Maybe to be expected. So this is an 8bit base line. BAD 8 bit baseline. I've seen better 8bit.

    NOW BACK THE OTHER WAY, to test exports from Symphony DX to After Effects or some other destination.

    TIF sequence import at 1:1 10b. exported from Avid as TIF sequence. Looks great. Reported as trillions of colors. When switched into an 8bit composition still looks great.

    175X import, exported as Same as Source. Looks good. Reported as trillions of colors, appears 10bit. Slight radial banding or compression artifacts. When switched into an 8bit composition exhibits severe banding. Wonder why the difference compared to TIF sequence?

    TIF sequence import at 1:1 10b, exported custom to DNX 175X. Looks OK. Slightly degraded exhbiting a little more banding or compression type artifcats than above. Reported as trillions of colors, appears to be 10bit. When switched into an 8 bit composition exhibits severe banding. There is definitely a difference between custom exports and same as source exports. An item for concern.

    175x import, exported custom as 175x. Similar to above. Troubling difference compared to same as source export.

    TIF sequence imported at 1:1p 10b, exported as Same as Source. Reported as millions of colors in Avid packed codec. LOOKS HORRIFIC! Severe banding and artifacts. Unusable.

    TIF sequence imported at 175x, exported custom as Avid Packed. Could not select trillions of colors in Avid export. Same as above. HORRIBLE! Unusable.

    Hard for me to draw many conclusions. Consider the above just information. However:

    There does not appear to be a way to get uncompressed 10bit HD out of Composer via quicktime. There does not appear to be a way to successfully use the uncompressed 10bit HD codecs outside of Composer. This is a pretty big deal. Those that think uncompressed is the way to go for exchange need to reconsider. It does not operate as such.

    There does seem to be a difference between Same as Source and Custom exports from composer. My tests were not iron clad and somewhat subject but this is troubling since we must custom export any AMA linked material or mixed resolution timelines. Not sure how this relates to transcodes.

    Also I should mention that flaws or issues with real world footage can push things to failure more so than test patterns. A soft shaped light on a background behind an interview subject can cause more severe banding or artificats than graphic gradients. Lately it seems that most cameras and field codecs have a pretty high noise floor in shadows, dark grays or in transitional lighting, which further complicates the issue.

    Someone smarter than I may be able to draw some more techinically correct conclusions.

     

     

     

    Symphony Nitris DX, Composer Nitris DX, MC Soft [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Jun 9 2011 2:46 AM In reply to

    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Chris,

    The results from your tests seems to corelate with what we are observing exchanging footage:

    1. Only same as source 1.1x and DNxHDx QT's export 10 bit.

    2. Only DNxHDx imports 10 bit.

    3. Non Avid codecs are only imported 10bit via AMA.

     

    Symphony 7.06 OS 10.9.5 QT 7.6.3 Mac Pro 2x2.66 6-core 32GB Ram Aja Kona 3. MC 7.0.6 OS 10.9.5 Mac Pro 5.1 2x2.97 6-core 14GB ram Aja I/O express, Apple... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Jun 9 2011 8:05 PM In reply to

    • C.A.M.
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    NubusAvid:

    1. Only same as source 1.1x and DNxHDx QT's export 10 bit.

    2. Only DNxHDx imports 10 bit.

    3. Non Avid codecs are only imported 10bit via AMA.

    1. APPARENTLY. Very weird and extremely limiting that custom exports to 1:1x do not work. And there is something odd going on with custom DNXHD X exports not related to bit depth but which could cause something looking like false contouring. May be compression-recompression artifacts. 

    Btw Avid's nomenclature for codecs is poor. Assuming 1:1p is really 1:1x when importing and 1:1x is 1:1x during exports. The packed codec adds some confusion. In no exchange circumstance has Avid packed delivered good results.

    2. Imported DNX 175x material seems to have some odd sort of faint, barely noticeable, non bit depth related light narrow horizontal banding. I believe this occurs when the material is created in the codec outside of Composer. Not on import. This is adding minor image instability not apparent on the TIF sequence when imported as 175x or 1:1p.

    Also not sure this comes in as "fast import". Do not see any mention of it in the dialog box. So, is this being re-compressed?

    3. AMA is adding to the confusion I see similar light striations in much of what it has linked to in codecs like none, black magic 10bit, 175x, and 1:1 packed. 1:1X seems ok. No ProRes to test at the moment (on PC)

    The AMA linked 1:1X material oddly appears 10bit even though after effects reports it as millions of colors during creation and import. A trillions of colors option is never available but the codec appears to function in 10b for everything BUT IMPORT. 

    I would also like to add that the gradient has a great deal of visual difference in its distribution from light to dark in DNX 175X material linked to via AMA when compared to any of the other codecs including Avid 1:1x. This difference is not in material transcoded to 175x from other sources or imported traditionally. 

    Confused enough to stop for now. But it does seem that Avid's codecs and their associated 10bit workflows are a real mess. AMA adds another layer of information to digest. 

    Unbelievable that none of this is mentioned in release notes, documentation or the knowledge base. 

    Symphony Nitris DX, Composer Nitris DX, MC Soft [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Jun 10 2011 8:46 AM In reply to

    • fiendish
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    C.A.M.:
    Unbelievable that none of this is mentioned in release notes, documentation or the knowledge base. 

    Yes it is real mess.

    If you don't get fast import then re-compression is occuring. In order to assure fast import, you need to select correct colour space within the codec settings before render (709 for video) and then check the corresponding Avid import options (image sized for current format, 601/709 and ordered for current format). Also useful to have 'use the source file resolution' checked in the OMF/AAF tab, as a backup for selecting the right res.

    I suspect the AE render issues are with the Quicktime codec implementation itself. If AE could directly render to MXF it would simplify things greatly.

    i7-2600k Home Build - MC 7.0.6 / 8GB RAM xw8600 Dual Quad 3ghz - MC 5.0.4. on Win 7 x64 with Mojo SDI - 12gb RAM / Quadro 3500 and 3ware 9650SE Raid 5... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Jun 10 2011 10:06 PM In reply to

    • Jon Bagge
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    I'm also interested in this.  I've been trying to go 10 bit to/from After Effects, and has so far given up. 

    One point though, I'm pretty certain the 'x' in 1:1x actually refers to MXF.   So 1:1x is the MXF version, and 1:1 is the OMF.  These are both 8 bit.   Avid Packed Codec is the 10 bit.

    At some point in the past the Packed Codec definitely allowed rendering billions of colours in After Effects, but not anymore.

     

    I think there may be several problems with how the Avid codecs behave and report themselves to After Effects.  I discovered today that an interlaced render in AE, rendered to PALi 1:1x, will only fast import into avid as progressive.  It's clearly interlaced, but I'm forced to slow import them as Avid insists they're progressive.

     

    Avid MC6 @ Dell Precision T7500, 2xXeon 5580 3.2Ghz, 48GB RAM, Quadro FX3800, Win7 Pro x64 [view my complete system specs]

    Jon Bagge

    Editor/Animator - Avid - FCP 7 - After Effects

     

  • Sat, Jun 11 2011 12:57 AM In reply to

    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Calvus,

    If you look in the capture settings you will see a resolution labelled:

    1:1 10b MXF in an interlaced project; 1:1p 10b MXF in a progressive project.

    It is true however that the OMF format was only 8 bit.

    Symphony 7.06 OS 10.9.5 QT 7.6.3 Mac Pro 2x2.66 6-core 32GB Ram Aja Kona 3. MC 7.0.6 OS 10.9.5 Mac Pro 5.1 2x2.97 6-core 14GB ram Aja I/O express, Apple... [view my complete system specs]
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