Firefly Studios:

This is my biggest complaint in a nutshell. I cannot confidently move around the timeline. New user settings cleared a few things up, but was not a fix-all by any means. And I really miss my "lasso/move" editing kung-fu punch.

In short, even after using it for a couple of weeks, 5.0 has slowed my editing down.

Randy, please make note of what I bolded in his quote and take it to heart, because as I've stated before, this is the fundamental problem with the smart tool as it exists now, as well as the unexpected and unannouced keyboard shortcut changes that were thrown at us - a negative effect on workflow and momentum. I wonder if Avid's design engineers fully appreciate how vitally important those two concepts are in the commercial editing world. Most clients are charged an hourly rate, and are very concerned with getting the job done quickly and efficiently with little or no downtime. We need changes and enhancements that streamline the existing workflow, not ones that create potholes and obstacles for us to overcome. With all due respect, maybe you don't know what it's like when a bitchy client is hovering over your shoulder watching each and every thing you do and panics when it looks like you don't know your own editing program. This is the scenario that you have forced upon us. We need this to change.

Larry, et al,

I really suggest you try your best to incorporate the suggestions proposed by Frank, Michael and Randy, and continue to post your concerns.

If these aren't addressed to your satisfaction over the next two weeks, a reasonable amount of time for Frank, Michael and Randy to reply, then contact Kirk and/or Gary directly.

This is your livelihood we're talking about.

P.S. This issue isn't going away. Avid should see comments by people like Larry and Firefly Studios as a blessing. Post houses are notoriously slow to upgrade. But once they start to do so in size due to MC5's many excellent features, Avid is going hear a lot more of complaints like those voiced in this thread.

BobbyMurcerFan:

P.S. This issue isn't going away. Avid should see comments by people like Larry and Firefly Studios as a blessing. Post houses are notoriously slow to upgrade. But once they start to do so in size due to MC5's many excellent features, Avid is going hear a lot more of complaints like those voiced in this thread.

Absolutely right. The people in this forum are the canaries in the coal mine, but we also sometimes influence the production companies where we freelance. I'm currently working at a large post-house in Boston that is deeply committed to Avid. We are one of the first facilities to fully embrace Avid Interplay and incorporate it into an extremely busy workflow. But they move cautiously here because there's too much at stake. After talking with our Senior VP of Post and our in-house Avid engineer who migrated here from Tewksbury, we are unanimously NOT upgrading to MC5 mainly because of its flaws that have emerged in this thread.

Moving forward and seeking a solution -- at one point I agreed with Kenton that a Classic Mode for working in the Timeline was not necessarily the best idea, but I'm starting to think it might be a viable option.

In order to help the design team understand our needs, I think we should make a distinction between SLIP & SLIDE over bunches of clips, vs. a Single Clip (with or without associated Audio/Video).

This has been an area in need of improvement for a very long time and getting it done right is essential to maximizing whatever the new "Smart Tools" has to offer.

Why? Because "SmartTools" is NOT a Lasso selection tool- it does not select more than ONE video clip once that clip has been divided by Add-Edits. In Segment mode, additional Shift+Clicking is required, including on Filler gaps, before a bunch of clips can be moved together with the mouse. I always have many Add-Edits and Filler gaps  throughout my timeline. Therefore, LASSO is still needed because it is the best tool for selecting many clips, which it does instantly and at once.

Try it, I think you'll see what I mean.

I'm going to start by making a complete survey of the Internal-Timeline Lasso across NOT one, but TWO video clips on a PC. Feel free to double-check or correct my findings. Editing is about revision.

I will do this with the new "Smart Tools" OFF, and with the Timeline/Edit Setting * ON * that allows for "SmartTools" to be turned OFF by clicking TC1.



Lasso Method #1:

When I do an un-modified Internal-Timeline ALT+Lasso across two clips, the two clips are highlighted because the RED Segment/Overwrite Arrow becomes active. If I then press TRIM Mode, those two clips change into SLIP Trim mode with rollers at each end. Note: the Red- Segment/Overwrite Arrow remains active.

If I then do an Internal-timeline Reverse (i.e., Right-to-left) ALT+Lasso, those two SLIP rollers change into SLIDE Trim rollers. Note: the Red Segment/Overwrite Arrow remains active. I can also MERGE clips from other tracks using Reverse SHIFT+ALT Lasso. Try it.



This is pretty much the way I've always used Lasso (on PC) to enter SLIP Trim Mode. The LASSO selection defines what I want, I can merge other tracks' clips into highlight mode by cherry-pick, clicking on them, and when I'm ready, I press TRIM to enter SLIP Trim mode.

This was not perfect, but it worked fairly well.

What made it imperfect was that I could NOT swap (or perhaps CYCLE is a better term) those SLIP Trim clips over to SLIDE Trim clips with the same ease: THERE IS NO Keyboard button to do it. Not "Cycle Trim Sides", "not even a ALT+TRIM, which would be a natural, in my opinion, if it's not already being used for something else.

To RECAP: I Lasso-Select a bunch of clips to highlight them, press TRIM to Cycle over to SLIP Mode Trim.

From there, I want to Cycle over to SLIDE Mode Trim, but I cannot do it using a handy keyboard shortcut.

BTW, The Right-Click Context Menu, with choices for SLIP Trim and SLIDE Trim has NEVER worked to act on MORE than a SINGLE Clip. Doing so will bust up my bunch of clips and leave me with a SINGLE clip.


Between this behavior and the lack of a dedicated keyboard shortcut that
works to Cycle the Adanced Trim modes, I feel deprived. This is my biggest issue with MC v.5 right now.


Now I will move on to the LASSO METHOD #2 for entering SLIP Trim or Slide Trim across TWO clips (i.e., two video clips, NOT the new "linked" concept for one clip) using LASSO exclusively.


When I do an Internal-Timeline Reverse ALT+Lasso across two clips, they enter into SLIDE Trim mode.

When I do an Internal-Timeline Lasso around those same SLIDE rollers, they go into SLIP TRIM mode across the same two clips.

So far, so good.

I gather that some editors from the MAC side were once able to go into SLIP Trim Mode directly as a result of an Internal-Timeline Lasso. That sounds like a good feature to me and we should have it on the PC side.

Getting back to that pair of SLIP Trim mode clips...

When I do another Internal-Timeline Lasso around the SLIP rollers, nothing happens. OK.

When I instead do an Internal-Timeline ALT+Lasso around the SLIP rollers, they become SLIDE Trim rollers again.

I can go back to SLIDE Trim by re-doing the Reverse ALT+Lasso.

When I have a Multi-Clip selection in either SLIP TRIM Mode or SLIDE TRIM Mode, (i.e. with Trim Rollers visible) there are serious limitations. When I Right-click to reveal the Context-Sensitive Menu, I see both SELECT SLIP TRIM and SELECT SLIDE TRIM as choices.  But either choice downgrades that Multi-Clip Trim to a SINGLE Clip. As I said above, this is a very unpleasant behavior that has always been a sore spot.

For Example, if you take the time to set up a Multi-Clip Trim with the following characteristics, you'll see the problem clearly: On V2 have two clips side by side; on V1, have one clip; on A1 have two clips side by side. Once Lassoed, you'll be in SLIDE Trim Mode. Next, use the mouse's Right-Click to reveal the Context-Sensitive Menu and choose SELECT SLIP TRIM. You will now see that all your SLIP Trim Rollers that were seen on V2, V1 and A1 clips are gone, except for ONE: the earliest of the pair on V2. Aaaarrrggghhhh! Why can't this be fixed to act as expected?

Also, even if those two Context-Menu choices were working properly, they are NOT mappable to the keyboard, so keep that in mind as well.

Multi-clips and Double-Clicking on their Trim Rollers:

I tried every permutation on Double-Clicking my TWO clips' Trim Rollers- with and without Modifiers- the result was the same as using the Context-Menu: all but ONE Clip is dropped from bunch.

Honestly, what I had hoped for from such a major Timeline overhaul was to finally have a Command Palette keyboard shortcut that would effectively CYCLE between SLIP Trim, SLIDE Trim,and also Highlighted Clip-Mode.

Let's remember that "SmartTools" works on a Single Clips, or Shift+Clicked clips, so LASSO support is just as important today as it ever was. Actually, I think it's vital to realizing the designer's vision for Media Composer.


Please give us a keyboard shortcut to Cycle from Highlight-to-SLIP-To-SLIDE. Please tend to the nuances of multi-clip advanced Trim Mode behavior.

That would be awesome!

-T


*The first thing I did was to go into Settings/Timeline/Edit to check ON  "Clicking on the TC1 or Ruler Disables Smart Tools". This new setting is probably a must for me since I constantly use Lasso Selection tool, which currently also functions as a "Smart Tools" enable feature- whether we like it or not.  So, thanks for giving us that Setting option, I know I have to use it after every Lasso to get back to normal, pre-MC5
timeline behavior. I hope there will soon be a different Setting included that allows me to move the mouse across the full timeline (i.e., not just along the TC1 track, the Ruler or at the bottom of the Composer wwindow), with the Red-Segment/Overwrite Arrow still ON. I would find that useful and enjoy my MC5 even more.

Hi Campbell, Thanks for the reply.

"Umm...turns out there was a keyboard modifier combo I didn't know abouton the PC... (changing topic quickly to avoid further embarassment)"

- No worries. Glad it's not an issue. 

"I was going to write about my bad experience with copy/paste, but after spending half an hour testing variious situations I think I understand it a lot better. It does work, but requires that you are keenly aware of what state the Smart Tool is in. Whereas before you could control whether you did an insert or overwrite paste by simply selecting that mode, the situation is more complex here, so I find myself having to double-check what Smart Tool tools are selected, and toggling them on or off to get into the right mode.

I think this is the essence of AndrewAction's complaint - never knowing quite what state things are in without having to look at the Smart Tool or the timeline, which distracts from the editing process."

- Ok. Thanks for the above and additional feedback. While it's good to know Copy/Paste works, I assure you that the team will look at the overall functionality of how it interacts with the ST.

Hi funckdren, 

"Randy -- I'm assuming you mean Lasso Slip from WITHIN the timeline. I hope so."

Correct. Lasso from within the Timeline.  Lasso from above the tracks should still be good. Please let me know otherwise. Tx. 

-RandyM

Hi  Lunelson, thanks for the reply. In my initial test I find that I am able to move the watch point with multiple trim selections with the single click. I'll take a closer look though, based on your feedback.

AFWIW:

" Linked selection needs a modifier key. If you would put lasso back on CTRL, then OPT could be used in a sensible fashion, like for example being able to make an unlinked segment or trim selection when linked selection is on, or vice versa."

- If Linked Selection is enabled, you can use the Alt/Option key to make an un-linked selectiion. If Linked Selection is off, you can use Alt/Option to make a Linked Selection.

Hope this helps. -RandyM

Randy Martens:

In my initial test I find that I am able to move the watch point with multiple trim selections with the single click.

OK, I don't have MC5 in front of me; but that doesn't seem right: wouldn't a single click simply de-select that trim point?

Randy Martens:

If Linked Selection is enabled, you can use the Alt/Option key to make an un-linked selectiion.

Again, I don't have it in front of me -- how is that possible if the option key invokes a lasso?

Can anyone else confirm these?

lunelson:

wouldn't a single click simply de-select that trim point?

If you are holding Shift, a single click de-selects it. If you just single-click the point you want to watch, you can change the watch point on a complex multi-track trim. This is the way it's always been, and I don't believe it has changed in MC5.

Thanks funckdren. I was just in the middle of replying when you beat me to it.

A bit off topic but, while shift+option+lasso R2L will allow for a dual roller selection, new to 5.x is the ability to just center click on a cut to add dual roller. In earlier releases you would need to shift select each roller (or lasso)

"how is that possible if the option key invokes a lasso"

- The Option key invokes the lasso as you'll notice on the pointer, but you end up performing a click, not a drag.

Randy Martens:

new to 5.x is the ability to just center click on a cut to add dual roller. In earlier releases you would need to shift select each roller

Yes, Randy, I noticed that recently. That was a very good addition to the trim set.

Larry Rubin:

Firefly Studios:

This is my biggest complaint in a nutshell. I cannot confidently move around the timeline. New user settings cleared a few things up, but was not a fix-all by any means. And I really miss my "lasso/move" editing kung-fu punch.

In short, even after using it for a couple of weeks, 5.0 has slowed my editing down.

Randy, please make note of what I bolded in his quote and take it to h

No worries Larry. All, please know that while I am currently looking at specific detaials in this thread, that your other comments are not lost. The team is listening to your feedback.

-RandyM

Telegram!:

Please give us a keyboard shortcut to Cycle from Highlight-to-SLIP-To-SLIDE. Please tend to the nuances of multi-clip advanced Trim Mode behavior.

When you decide to add to an interface THEN ADD to the interface PLEASE do not mess with existing functionality. Larry's pesky client sccenario has played out here several times as I suspect it has or will in very many established Avid shops.

As you have read some do not want to use the smart tool because for us it is slow and clumsy. Allow us to turn it off so it never rears its ugly head unless we ask it to. Thanks

Try doing your testing on longform timelines with maxed out numbers of video and audio tracks. I think very soon you will find what can be made to work on a Demo with a few tracks extended vertically suddenly turns to mush.

funckdren:

If you just single-click the point you want to watch, you can change the watch point on a complex multi-track trim.

Hmm...I never tried that. I think I just got used to keeping my finger on the shift key while in trim as I made selections. OK, thanks. I guess that's why I was the only one on that point ;)

Randy Martens:

The Option key invokes the lasso as you'll notice on the pointer, but you end up performing a click, not a drag.

I'm going to have to reinstall MC5 to see that, it sounds weird. So if I turn the Smart Tool on (all tools), and Linked Selection off, and option-click on something, I get a linked segment-mode-style selection? But if I had dragged while pressing the mouse button it would have been a lasso move? Click and lasso are working at the same time using the same modifier key?

Randy Martens:

All, please know that while I am currently looking at specific detaials in this thread, that your other comments are not lost. The team is listening to your feedback.

-RandyM

Thanks Randy, this is a great company with a great future. Looking forward to team's feedback on the Trim Cycle idea.