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  • Tue, Feb 24 2009 10:29 PM

    • vpcmike
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    • Baltimore, MD
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    3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    Kirk -

    Very nice to see you and the new management taking an active part of the forum.  Welcome!

    My biggest complaint about Avid is it's inability to work wiith 3rd pary hardware for input/output/monitoring.  If you look at all of the ads for companies like Decklink, AJA, Motu, Matrox, etc., they all tout that they work with Adobe Premiere and Apple Final Cut Pro.  Us Avid users are stuck with the Mojo (with it's consumer connectors), Mojo SDI, and now the Mojo DX and Nitris DX.  The Nitris DX is a great device for all I/O, and in my opinion priced fairly reasonably for all of the features that it provides.  But will Avid and its "New Thinking" open up their architecture to let Media Composer work with those same cards and devices as the other editors use?  I would love to buy a Decklink or an AJA that has much more capability than a mojo for the same (or even cheaper) price. 

    Please give us the option to use I/O hardware other than Avid brand OEM devices.

    System #1 - Mac Pro 12 Core 2.93, 24 GB RAM, 16 TB ISIS 5000 System #2 - Core i7 2600k, Windows 7, 16 GB RAM, Quadro 4000 System #3 - Dell Precision... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Feb 25 2009 12:06 AM In reply to

    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    I know this section is supposed to go directly to Avid execs, but because it is part of the open Forum I see no harm in replying as a another user. 

    I feel it's extremely beneficial for them to hear the comments of some things that users want, but they should also be able to read other users' comments regarding the same requests. 

    vpcmike:
    I would love to buy a Decklink or an AJA that has much more capability than a mojo for the same (or even cheaper) price.

    I personally don't think that's good business sense.  Do your clients say "I would love to hire someone that has the same skills and capabilities as mike for a cheaper rate."?  How long would you be in business?

    Now, if the Avid devices were more competively priced and there was a very clear documentation/comparison between what the competition offered and the Avid OEM hardware, then the need to open up and work with other 3rd Party hardware would be moot as I feel the NitrisDX certainly would win in a cost per feature analysis.   

     

     

    MacPro dual 2.66GHz 6GB RAM nVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT Storage: 2TB G-Speed eS with controller card 3x1TB Hitachi SATA-II internals, various external FW/USB... [view my complete system specs]

    Kenton VanNatten | Avid Editor (for hire)

    "I am not obsessed... I'm detail-oriented"

  • Wed, Feb 25 2009 1:34 AM In reply to

    • NICKB
    • Top 100 Contributor
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    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    This is perhaps one of the biggest product problems avid has they have to address this pricing problem.

    UK prices are around 6-10 times higher for an Avid i/o box than Matrox, AJA, Blackmagic solution

    It has been talked to death on the forums, but as an independent production company going tapeless we cannot justify a Nitris box at a price that is getting close to a RED1 camera body or a SONY EX3 and change.

     

    Anyway it is really a smart move for Avid to improve its customer communications via the internet and it is one thing Apple with Final Cut Pro will not do.

  • Wed, Feb 25 2009 2:48 AM In reply to

    • nicov
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    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    We can argue endlessly (as it has been done in this forum) about the right pricing for avid hardware, but I hope this hardware product line is going to be completed soon by a product responding to an obvious need for file based format editing and really portable on location laptop editing. Meaning an HD monitoring output only device. Smaller and cheaper than mojo DX of course.

    The MXO was a clear answer to that for apple and adobe softwares and had success, avid can eitheir support it (without risking to overleap DX as it is output only) or come up with a device of its own but the fact is there's a market there. 

    OSX 10.5.5 / MC 3.1.3 / Mojo DX / octo 2.8 Macpro / 6g ram / Ati 2600 + Ati 3870 / 2x Nec 19' + JVC DTV24 / Sony HVR M15 / 2To sata raid0 / [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Feb 25 2009 3:40 AM In reply to

    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    I 100% agree that the market for low-cost monitoring solutions is there... heck I'm one of the potential customers.  But, from a business standpoint it would be suicide if the software was re-tooled so that it made the same company's own hardware obsolete.

    I'm betting Apple won't re-tool FCP so that it works on Windows for that same basic reason.  Software sells hardware.

    I do like your suggestion nicov of a device that allows HD monitoring cheaper than a MojoDX (or do away with the MojoDX as we know it)  I think the key here is that whatever product is supported whether it's 3rd party or something that Avid develops itself, it can not have market spill-over to the point of losing sales of the bigger ticket item.  They had product line pollution between XpressPro, MC, Symphony.  Now they just have some product line pollution between MC and Symphony.  Some don't feel the cost of Symphony is justified as the only apparant marketable feature over MC is the Secondary Color Correction.  Avid can not afford to make that same mistake with regard to the hardware.  

     

     

    MacPro dual 2.66GHz 6GB RAM nVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT Storage: 2TB G-Speed eS with controller card 3x1TB Hitachi SATA-II internals, various external FW/USB... [view my complete system specs]

    Kenton VanNatten | Avid Editor (for hire)

    "I am not obsessed... I'm detail-oriented"

  • Wed, Feb 25 2009 3:29 PM In reply to

    • switthaus
    • Top 50 Contributor
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    • Cobbs Creek, VA
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    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    Kenton.VanNatten:

    I know this section is supposed to go directly to Avid execs, but because it is part of the open Forum I see no harm in replying as a another user. 

    I feel it's extremely beneficial for them to hear the comments of some things that users want, but they should also be able to read other users' comments regarding the same requests. 

    vpcmike:
    I would love to buy a Decklink or an AJA that has much more capability than a mojo for the same (or even cheaper) price.

    I personally don't think that's good business sense.  Do your clients say "I would love to hire someone that has the same skills and capabilities as mike for a cheaper rate."?  How long would you be in business?

    Now, if the Avid devices were more competively priced and there was a very clear documentation/comparison between what the competition offered and the Avid OEM hardware, then the need to open up and work with other 3rd Party hardware would be moot as I feel the NitrisDX certainly would win in a cost per feature analysis.   

     

    the simple answer is to be sure Avid is clear WHY their products are worth the extra investment compared to what is available out on th eopen market.  In essence Avid could be driving potential customers away by only offering a closed end system.  They need to let potential users understand why Nitris worth the extra cash.

    Scott Witthaus

    Owner/Editor/Post Production Supervisor 1708 Editorial

    http://vimeopro.com/1708editorial/1708-editorial

  • Wed, Feb 25 2009 3:43 PM In reply to

    • NICKB
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    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    Judging by the London Broadcast show last week, Avid did not have any Mojo or Nitris box's on display as far as i could see, just software so maybe that says things are about to change by NAB.

  • Wed, Feb 25 2009 3:58 PM In reply to

    • vpcmike
    • Top 50 Contributor
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    • Baltimore, MD
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    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    Let's be completly honest here - Avid's old management had their head buried in the sand and a had lot of arrogance which led them to completely ignore FCP until it was too late.  Now all of the kids in the schools are learning primarily FCP and not Avid.  We are trying to find an intern or two for the semester and EVERY one of the applicants knew FCP and NONE knew Avid.  All of the local universities in the Baltimore market are teaching their kids FCP and not Avid because FCP had much better deals for educators.  Now Avid has an educational program in place and we are trying to help them get back into Towson University, one of the schools in our area with a large media program.  But a lot of damage has been done, and because of Avid's past decisions, the market has now changed in a very large way from the days that Avid ruled unchallenged.

     

    Whether Avid likes it or not, Media Composer's direct competition is FCP, and Adobe Premier and even Vegas to a much smaller extent.  To be competitive with those companies, Avid needs their hardware to be cost effective as well.  The most cost effective solutions are from 3rd party products where competition helps dictate the marketplace. 

     

    AJA, Decklink, MOTU and others work with FCP and Premiere and Vegas, etc.  BUT NOT WITH AVID.  Instead, we are stuck with the old mojo and it's consumer connectors, Mojo DX which is priced so high that in my opinion it is a joke just to get HDMI monitoring, and Nitris DX, which I think does a lot of great things and is more appropriatly priced for what it provides.  But why should I have to stick with a mojo when my business competitors can do more with a decklink and spend less?  That's bad business - paying more for hardware that does less.  Good business is taking on your competitors and doing everything possible to promote the strenghs of your product (and Avid has many strengths) while not pricing your product too high over your competitiors' package prices. 

    System #1 - Mac Pro 12 Core 2.93, 24 GB RAM, 16 TB ISIS 5000 System #2 - Core i7 2600k, Windows 7, 16 GB RAM, Quadro 4000 System #3 - Dell Precision... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Feb 25 2009 5:18 PM In reply to

    • pro---studio
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    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    If avid is honest - the only thing why avid does not support 3rd party hardware is to get rid of their absolutely overpriced own hardware. NO ONE would ever buy that if you had the possibility to run an avid with an aja or a decklink card.

    But...

    The market has changed. I get more and more collegues that switch to FCP exactly because of that point: You get more features and more resolutions for a much lower price. Plus: Avid does still not hear the shouts and prayers of their customers. It is absolutely a shame that you cannot get product support if you don't buy a support contract.

     

    For my honest opinion avid can not survive if they are not open to a really competition and let the customer decide which hardware is their favourite. Any other competitor does that (Vegas, Adobe, FCP) and is open minded for their customers needs. Please don't come with the argument that MC has to be a stable application and that is only because of the avid hardware. NONSENS! I had a qualified system and I had plenty of things that are buggy and not stable. Until now (from 2004) I am not able to output a timeline via digital cut though my Mojo without dropped frames or stutters. So please never ever tell me something about "avid qualified hardware" and Avids own hardware. If I would like FCP a little bit more I would have switched. Many others would have switched if FCP would run on PCs.

     

    But I find that the INTERFACE OF MC IS STILL THEIR BIGGEST WEAPON against their competitors. But that is not really much and is burried really soon if time goes on and avid does not really do a new thinking! 3rd party hardware is a must to to be competitive in todays edit market. If avid likes that or not. So please avid managers: Have in mind that you have an absolutely fantastic user interface and a good piece of software. Please open your mind and your software for 3rd party hardware. I don't want to use FCP - I want to use avid with a decklink card. In addition to that: Hear what you customers say. They like your software but not the way you treat them. Much better support and an open platform for MC - That would blow your competitors away.

    Regards

     

    Pro

    ASUS P5Q3 / Intel Quad Core 9650 / nvidia Quadro 4500 / 8GB Ram OCZ / onboard sound / 250GB SATA System HD / 1,5TB Video HD Raid5 on Highpoint 2310 / Mojo... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Feb 25 2009 7:23 PM In reply to

    • adam5000
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    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    The way I see it and for what it's worth, Media Composer is priced perfectly among the current market choices.  For me it's the best editing application in the world and it can now run totally free of hardware, and run beautifully.  But the problem starts with Avid hardware.  Sure, they have listened and made the overall price of an amazing system less than it ever was but it needs to be dropped even more.  Making a low cost device that is for HD monitoring only might be a good thing for certain users but others would pay a little more and would like to get more ins and outs.

    Remember the survey we filled out a year and a half ago?  It asked what price range people wanted the software to be based at and it asked about hardware too.  I don't remember the $ amounts but I myself believe the MC is right where it needs to be.  The hardware needs to be lower in price and that's because the market is changing and other third party companies are coming out with devices that do more than Avid's boxes and they do it for less.

    I love Avid and am not a fan of the other editing programs out there, but that;s just me.  But I think a large protion of Avid's current and potentially future client base would like to see better pricing on any external boxes.

    Just my .02

    MC Version 8.4.4 Mac OS 10.10.5 IMac 27" 3.2 Ghz i5 16gb RAM [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Feb 25 2009 10:24 PM In reply to

    • pierreh
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    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    I know that R&D should be included in the equation to be completely fair, but has anybody an idea of how much it costs to make a Mojo DX? Can't be that expensive, the thing is only a box with connectors, it doesnt accelerate anything nor help fx...

    - Work: MacPro 2010 3.46Ghz 12 Cores 48Gig mem, int and ext Raids, Mojo DX, 10.12.6 - Home: MacBookPro 2.5Ghz quad-i7, 16Gig Mem and SSD OSX 10.9.5 [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Feb 26 2009 12:05 AM In reply to

    • Brickwad
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    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    It might be significant that Avid is participating in NAB this year, after dropping out last year . .Not speculating, but hoping.

    1 MC4 Nitris DX on 12 core 2.66 mac pro 6 Gigs of Ram, 2 Symphony Nitris DX on eight core mac pro with 12 gig ram, 3 MC7 on Mac Pro, IMAC, and Macbook... [view my complete system specs]

    WWLD?

  • Thu, Feb 26 2009 12:16 AM In reply to

    • NICKB
    • Top 100 Contributor
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    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    It costs around $60 for a Video to SDI chip!

    For prices of complete system electronics see Blackmagic Design. $995 gets you all the way to 4:4:4 and 2k film resolution.

    The matrox MX02 is $1600 I do hope Kirk Arnold has been shown this product alongside the Mojo DX with an explanation as to why the Mojo is up to 5x the price.

     

  • Thu, Feb 26 2009 3:29 AM In reply to

    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    I do not know how many of you follow what Digidesign does, but Digidesign actually does support the Blackmagic Decklink Extreme with Pro Tools|LE v8 in what they call Video Satellite LE.  A Mac Pro with an Mbox 2 Micro and the Blackmagic card can playback video in sync with a Pro Tools system, and its locked to the frame edge.  If Digidesign can do this, surely Avid can.  The question I have though is why did Digidesign do this instead of using Mojo DX?

    8-core Nehalem Mac Pro with Pro Tools|HDX v10.3.8 and DeckLink HD Extreme 8-core Nehalem Mac Pro with Symphony Nitris DX v7.0.3 12-core Westmere Mac... [view my complete system specs]

    Jonathan S. Abrams, CEA, CEV, CBNT

    Apple Certified - Technical Coordinator (v10.5), Support Professional (v10.6 through v10.8)

    Chairman, NY section, Audio Engineering Society

  • Thu, Feb 26 2009 5:53 AM In reply to

    Re: 3rd Party Hardware I/O?

    Chief Technician:
    Digidesign actually does support the Blackmagic Decklink Extreme with Pro Tools|LE v8 in what they call Video Satellite
    Might be wrong but my reading was Video sattelite only worked with an Avid with a DX box.

    Chief Technician:
    The question I have though is why did Digidesign do this instead of using Mojo DX?
    For Sync pictures with sound from a Protools session my first guess would be Blackmagic has cheap timing sourced from the cpu's clock speed for its sync.  DX boxes probably have far more complex and accurate syncing. 

    However its done the Blackmagic works really well here for synced HD oand SD video playback whilst in a Protools session on the same machine.

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