Hello All,

Wondering if you can help me pick my brain. Right now were working on the edit and to move things right along were feeding the composer scenes so he can start scoring. Were working with MC3.0 and our projects are 23.98 NTSC due to working off Dvcam tapes as the editors cassette but our final product after conform, color correct and sound mix  is HD SR.

Now in the past its always been output to a Dvcam and send that off to the composer and have him score to that. No I know I keep in mind that since I'm outputting from a 23.98 project to a Dvcam, the tape isn't 23.98 (due to DVcam's not running at 23.98 but 29.97 drop or non drop depending what you have your timeline set to. I choose ND. I know the delima's that come into to play when going from SD to HD with Drop frame material)

So my real question is this. Since the composer is only equip for quicktime and not tape what should I export the quicktime as? Same as source (avid codec 23.98) and have his project at 29.97 ND or should i export my timeline at Avid DV 30ND (which is basicly or should kill the middle man as far as doing a digital cut  it to tape and having some one else capture it, encode it and send it off to the composer) The composer is working with a piece of software called "Virtual VTR" to run his picture out a Canopus box to his plasma which is synced to his logic software to score and build temp tracks. This is also the composers 1st time working in NTSC.  Many many years in the PAL world for him so this being a new step is a little overwhelming and also I really don't like quicktime due to it not being frame accurate. Please let me know. Thanks for your time and hope to hear some great answers

Cheers 

I'm in the PAL world, but I generally supply QuickTime files in DV-PAL at 24.00fps to the composers, with a TC24 burnin. You should be able to do the same at 23.98fps in DV-NTSC, but you might just as well export to DV-NTSC at 29.97, including the pulldown in the export.

I'm under the impression that Virtual VTR handles multiple framerates and counters, as does ProTools. You'll need to find out if his other software will handle this.

I don't see what is not frame accurate about Quicktimes, actually. I've been using them to send to picture and sound post for years now, without any issues.

 Keep in mind that exportng as 29,97 from a 23.976 project, QuickTime does not do a 2:3 insertion but rather a 4+1 which will look steppy when playing back as NTSC. Also, Quicktime labels 23.976 as 23.98 so ther may be some drift on long reels (I need to do the math).

Michael

what do you suggest as solution? Instead of exporting it at 29.97 (which i did do a test and I do see you the picture stepping that your talking about and drift is a concern) would the best solution be to just cut it to tape, have a post house encode it and have them create the quicktime movie at 29.97 ND quickitme (since I'm not equiped to put it threw an encoder like a "Spruce" . Would it then  be coming from a 29.97 source and the correct 3:2 pull down applied) ? Want to figure this out before the composer gets right into it.

Cheers

This isn't really that hard.  Basically, find out if the composer wants a 23.976 Quicktime or a 29.97 Quicktime, then give him that.  I usually use the DV/DVCPRO codec (NOT Avid DV, which won't work unless you have Avid installed, which most composers don't) at whatever framerate they specify.  Some composers prefer MJPEG instead, but for most systems DV should be fine.

As for the steppiness, well, I wouldn't worry about it too much.  As long as it has a window burn that is the same as what you're giving to sound, you should be fine in the end.  I've always given composers Quicktimes straight out of the Avid, and I've never had a complaint.  The only issue is that Avid can't export a 29.97 Quicktime from a 24fps project, but since you're on 23.976 this shouldn't be an issue.  Frame accuracy and drift shouldn't be a problem either.  The key thing is having a window burn on anything you send out, because that way even if your timecode and framerate get completely messed up, you can be sure that you still have some reference point for staying in sync.

yale:

find out if the composer wants a 23.976 Quicktime or a 29.97 Quicktime, then give him that.

The OP mentioned this was the composer's first time in NTSC, so it is likely that he/she doesn't know.

Then give him either one, and if it doesn't work, give him the other one.  Or just give him both.  I don't think the issue is what he can play back -- he can play back nearly anything you give him.  It really comes down to what his composing software is set up to do.  I've had some composers that wanted only 24 frame Quicktimes because that was what sound was getting, and some that insisted that their system wouldn't work with anything except 29.97.  So really, without that information, you don't have a whole lot to go on.  The safest thing would be to render both versions as a test.  Ask him to try the 23.976 version first, because that makes things a bit simpler when you get into your mix, and may also make it easier for you by not having to deal with mixed frame rates in your turnover.  Get him to make sure not only that it plays back, but that it plays at the correct speed, maintains sync, etc.  If that doesn't work for whatever reason, then he should try the 29.97.  If THAT doesn't work, then you have some other fundamental problem with his setup.  Perhaps he needs a different codec (the next most popular I've been asked for after DV is MJPEG).  But my guess is that, assuming he has a reasonably modern setup, he should be able to handle pretty much anything you send him.

At any rate, I don't think it's unreasonable to give him a couple of different versions and ask him to test them out for you.  I think it will actually put him more at ease, because it will relieve him of the burden of providing specifications to editorial, which is something a composer would normally do.  Once you have it figured out, write down exactly what it was you gave him and send it to him by email.  He'll appreciate it the next time he has to ask for Quicktimes.

What I have run into with some Pro Tool set up is that they use a hardware card to play the QT back out to a full screen NTSC monitor. In those cases, the 29.97 QT is the one that works. And one made with proper 2:3 pulldown looks better and will be closer to being "frame accurate."

Most features play out in real time from Avid which provides the proper 2:3 pulldown and use the new timecode plug-in that will properly show both 24fps an 30fps timecode then encode from that.

Michael

Michael,

So is there no workaround to author (via Avid export to Sorenson to AvidDVDit) for true 2:3 pulldown introduced for smooth NTSC playback, from an Avid 24p/23.976 project?

There is NO software solution, only Digital Cut playback to external hardware recorder?

*Note my other recent thread on this question - apologize for any duplication of issue here. But seems an important point.

Thanks,

Joe

 After Effects after applying a 2:3 expand will do the same.

Michael

On a sidenote, this might be an interesting solution, available soon: BMD VideoRecorder.

At present I do not have After Effects, and cannot afford purchase at the moment.

What should I expect as a result from Sorenson 5, using the filter option  2:3 telecine ?

I have checked my exported Quicktime ref movie and Quicktime info confirms the fps 23.976. 

A) Thus should I be able to get a true 2:3 pulldown inserted by sorenson 5.0?

B) if I process the Quicktime Ref movie in Sorenson as its native 23.976 (24p), why does my consumer DVD progressive player not play back on an NTSC monitor as a 2:3 interlace frame rate?  Why does it still appear as 4:1 when I advance frame by frame on playback?

By the way, happy labor day.

-JG

Balckmagic gadget sounds Cool.

for the moment I ended up using for Digital Cut playback output from my AVID to create a DVD crash record, the small Sony MC5 unit.  Easy menu, record only, accepts composite RCA, S-vdieo, DVcam inputs.  Small image window confirms picture being recorded, easy Finalize.

 When you have all the preset open in Sorenson, right click, and select "Import" and bring in the file I sent. That should add it as a preset with all the others.

Michael

Still trouble trying to import the settings. 

I opened the zip file successfully.  But it created an xss.txt file.  Always adding the txt extension.

(Tried to follow instructions, but when I right-click in Sorenson, with preset windows open, I am unable to get a choice in the submenu for 'import'.)

If I navigate to the Top Menu, and under Audience,there is an option for "Import", and this opens list of "Opena naudience preset file", and navigate to your preset file, which opens from the zip as an .xss.text file.

txt. Extension not recognized for import.

When I change the name to be only an .xss extension (erase .txt), or if I SAVE AS with only the .xss extension (without .txt), I get windows dialogue box: "error loading audience preset -  Could not load...."

How might I open the zip correctly so the resultant file will import settings? 

Note: I recently sent my DVD of feature documentary for review to a major broadcaster, but had to send the 24p 'stepping' 4:1 version rather than a true 2:3 pulldown or a proper 24p progressive DVD - would still like to get my settings correct in Sorenson so I can burn better DVD (both as progressive and as interlaced NTSC. 

As always I do appreciate your attention to my forum inquires.  I'm determined to solve the problem.

Best,

Joe