Latest post Mon, Apr 16 2018 5:24 PM by Ryder. 5 replies.
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  • Tue, Apr 3 2018 9:36 AM

    • ajordan92
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    Mixed Frame Rate Workflow

    Hi all,

    Sorry, another annoying frame rate discussion...

    So I work in a commercial offline editing house where we do promos/commercials e.t.c. Often for the poorly produced promos and the occasional stock footage related work we receieve footage in varying frame rates. Being based in the UK 90% of projects are 25fps, so the mixed footage we receieve is in 24fps, 23.976fps, 30fps e.t.c.. 

    Our current workflow is to batch convert these in MPEG Streamclip to Pro Res 442 HQ/4444 (if they aren't already) and then run these through cinema tools conforming to 25fps. So essentially we are creating new masters which we copy onto the drive which gets delivered to the post house for grading/online.

    This is the way they were doing it when I started here and its just been continued. However, my issue with this is that because we have officially stopped running Final Cut (every editor now uses Avid) we only have Cinema Tools on one old Final Cut partition on one computer, additionally I think I'm right in saying 1. Both Cinema Tools and MPEG Streamclip are outdated and discountinued to some extent 2. It only works with the Final Cut package installed, which if we were to replace the machine we would lose it.

    So I want to find an alternative solution to converting mixed frame rate footage to 25fps, which most importantly will conform later down the line using an EDL and AAF at a different post house that are conforming to do the grade/VFX or online. So essentially there can't be any timecode discrepancies, every frame needs to have a unqiue timecode

    Feel free to suggest any solution, even ones which may incur software/app costs because it is an essential part of the workflow so work will invest in getting this right and making it seamless.

    Avid version we are currently running is 8.9.4 - however again, we can update if needed.

    Lastly, there maybe a very obvious solution like running it through Da Vinci or even EditReady, but I'm not aware so even if this is the case and its blindingly obvious please post!

    Thank you for you help in advance.

     

     

     

     

  • Tue, Apr 3 2018 2:01 PM In reply to

    Re: Mixed Frame Rate Workflow

    Not sure if it is appropriate for your workflow, but you certainly don't NEED to convert things. Like you, we often get stock footage and the like that is at a different framerate (25 fps) than we normally work (23.976). We just leave it all as-is.

    On ingest, we keep the source file's frame rate and either transocde to DNxHR or ProRes. DaVinci then renders out any clips after color correction maintaining that framerate. Then we can figure out the best method for playback (sometimes slowing down to match project, sometimes certain blend modes, etc.).

    So the clips never change and stay at their native rate until you putput the master.

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  • Tue, Apr 3 2018 4:12 PM In reply to

    Re: Mixed Frame Rate Workflow

    In the PAL world, the speed change is usually the best option. You xan do that in MC now, though. Link to the source file, open source settings, choose playback speed to « project speed », then transcode. Maintains proper timecode etc.

     

    you’ll be asked whether the speed change should be baked into the transcode, or if you prefer to transcode at the original rate. For your purposes, you could opt for either.

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  • Tue, Apr 10 2018 3:51 PM In reply to

    • ajordan92
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    • Joined on Tue, Apr 3 2018
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    • Points 65

    Re: Mixed Frame Rate Workflow

    Thank you for the replies. This is the type of approach I would love to adopt as workflow becomes so much more effecient when keeping everything in Avid.

    I have done some tests last week with mixed framerates and this method described.

    So I AMA in random frame rates, in the source settings adjusted the playback frame rate to the project 25fps and click apply. Then transcoded using "Convert to Project Frame Rate." Using this footage of 24fps, 23.98, 30 and 25fps I edited a very basic clip together and exported an EDL/AAF.

    I was then able to conform in DaVinci using the AAF! However the EDL was useless... Although we actually created a new EDL in DaVinci from the AAF sequence and that seemed to work ok. But for the most part the AAF was 100% frame for frame reliable in DaVinci.

    Luckily for me we have a Flame suite in the building so also asked the Flame Op to conform the sequence and he had no issues conforming the AAF aside from 1 clip being 1 frame out. Only 70% of the EDL conformed (so was better then DaVinci) but he was easily able to force the clips to conform without issue. So again AAF works.

    So I think my new method will be adjusting within Avid but always supplying an AAF and highlighting the importance of using the AAF. I guess its maybe down to some kind of precise speed effect data coming across in the AAF compared to the EDL.

    Thanks,

     

     

  • Tue, Apr 10 2018 4:01 PM In reply to

    Re: Mixed Frame Rate Workflow

    I think the issue maybe that the EDL doesn't know how to represent the change of speed. Don't forget the timecode of the clip is still what it was before but you are playing faster or slower. In and EDL that will cause all sorts of issues.

    Stick to the AAF route. If you needed to use an EDL workflow I'd change the speed via AMA in Avid and then export out new master clips. They would then have the correct timecode etc.

    They would then need to be re-ingested as the new master clips.

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  • Mon, Apr 16 2018 5:24 PM In reply to

    • Ryder
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    • Joined on Thu, Nov 26 2009
    • Paris, France
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    Re: Mixed Frame Rate Workflow

    This whole thread is most interesting, I'm keeping a copy for reference. I work with loads of archival footage in a 25 fps interlaced HD project.  We wget footage from all over the world with timecode burned in, then conform after offline editing is completed. My biggest issue is with traveling or panoramic shots (converting 30fps to 25 fps) , when the camera movement seems halting.

    In most cases I manage things like ajordan92 : "AMA in random frame rates, in the source settings adjusted the playback frame rate to the project 25fps and click apply. Then transcoded using "Convert to Project Frame Rate."  And it's often the best way to to go.  But when the movement gets haltingly transcoded, what to do???  

    I try encoding with something else before importing into Avid. Mpeg Streamclip doesn't do a good job. Adobe Media encoder is better.  Often I have to import progressive 30fps to interlaced 25fps (ugh). When all else failed, I tried doing it in two steps: Go from progressive to interlaced with Adobe. Then link to Avid and transcode into project frame rate. Result was better.

    As for conforming, it's case by case. Manually adapted with timewarp. Am interested in any other tips.

     

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