Latest post Wed, Nov 21 2018 2:28 PM by knejmann. 15 replies.
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  • Thu, Mar 22 2018 1:10 PM

    Progressive to Interlace frame phasing artifacting

    Hi Guys

    Hoping to find an answer to a common issue we have at our Avid equipped facility. We often have a lot of source Aerial footage shot progressive at 4k. From a workflow point of view, we can offline, conform, grade and online in progressive and the footage looks great however as soon as we change format to 1080i for UK delivery the drone footage always looks awful. We're trying to narrow down the best way to describe the effect we get in Symphony and currently the best we can do is Phase Correlation and Moiring Artefacting. IE rooftops begin to Moir with field order artefacts after mixing down to DNX185 X 1080i for delivery wheras on same broadcast monitor the clips looked great, smooth and nice before as progressive. 

    This is a constant bug bear for us and to clarify, this is only really a problem with Drone footage, and we've tried many different 'fixes', workarounds, which I won't break down for you now suffice to say all of them are time consuming so wondering what the de-facto, as such, Avid protocol or even Boris FX way to easily fix this and if anyone could hopefully point us in the direction. 

    Thanks in advance

    Jake

    Company Avid Media Composer 7.0.4 x 9 licences with 2 x Symphony options. 6 x NITRIS DX 3 x Avid Artist DXIO, ISIS 5k. 3 x SRW 5500, 1 SRW 5800, 2 X M2000... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Mar 22 2018 3:50 PM In reply to

    • Mike Brodeur
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    Re: Progressive to Interlace frame phasing artifacting

    When you down convert from 4K Progressive to 1080i a FrameFlex adapter is going to be used.  I have seen much better results (especially with this type of drone footage) by changing the Render setting from its default Standard (Bilinear) to Advanced (Polyphase).  This especially seems to help the Moire issues that arise.

  • Thu, Mar 22 2018 4:37 PM In reply to

    Re: Progressive to Interlace frame phasing artifacting

    Great thanks for that Mike appreciate this. So unfortunately we are using advance polyphase, and have also downconverted from baselight at good quality 1080 25p and brought into Avid and within the 1080p framework we have good results. However we've narrowed down the issue to the actual final adaptation from 1080p to 1080i in the Symphony  for delivery our purposes (which we have to do for UK DPP broadcast).

    Best wishes

    Jake

     

     

    Company Avid Media Composer 7.0.4 x 9 licences with 2 x Symphony options. 6 x NITRIS DX 3 x Avid Artist DXIO, ISIS 5k. 3 x SRW 5500, 1 SRW 5800, 2 X M2000... [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Apr 14 2018 8:11 PM In reply to

    • knejmann
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    Re: Progressive to Interlace frame phasing artifacting

    Have you tried to apply a slight vertical blur in 50p before converting to 50i?

    That has worked for me on drone shots recorded in HD 50P for either 25p or 50i projects. I imported the footage in After Effects, apply a 1 or 2 pixel vertical blur and export to 50i or 25p.

    We used this procedure routinely until DJI released a camera firmware that allowed the drone operators to choose a reasonable level of electronic detail. I think the issue arises when edges in the picture are exaggerated by the sharpening and then amplified further by reducing the resolution - either temporal or spatial. 

    Media Composer 8.2.11 (some with Symphony option) - Windows 7 - HP Z420/Z820 (Nitris DX), Lenovo W540 etc. - Interplay and ISIS7000+NEXIS storage - Avid... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Sun, Apr 15 2018 9:28 AM In reply to

    • Bruno M
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    Re: Progressive to Interlace frame phasing artifacting

    Jake Stratton:
    on same broadcast monitor the clips looked great, smooth and nice before as progressive

    Can I ask what monitor you're using? It's just that I've used a number of LCD/LED monitors that really didn't display interlaced very well. Often, things like reversed fields didn't show up which could trip you up when it came to QC. It's why I kept a traditional HD CRT screen in the edit suite.

    I've seen this moire patterning you describe on things like brickwork when shot on SLR cameras such as the Canon 5D. Although using something like vertical blur is one way of dealing with it, I was never that happy with the final result.

    One way I found that worked well with static shots was to use a temporal blur from a plugin set such as Boris. This had the effect of blending fields/frames over (say) a couple of frames which really cleaned up the image. The problem was that with non-static shots this caused its own problems with blurred motion, but I had success with interviews etc, where the moire background was reasonably static, and I could animatte that portion of the picture for temporal blurring. I'm guessing with aerial footage everything is moving so this technique may not work too well.

    HP Z800, HP8760, SonnetFusion RAID, Mojo DX, Symphony 8.10, JVC DTV1910 HD tube monitor, HP Dreamcolor, Avid Artist Color [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Apr 15 2018 12:08 PM In reply to

    Re: Progressive to Interlace frame phasing artifacting

    This is a really common problem and its interesting that Drone footage seems to be the main issue. Lots of otehr 4K (or even HD) Progfressive content converts to interlaced fine.

    Which points to it being something to do with the actual content. My guess is there is compression issues coupled with the very small single sensor being used and de-beyering of that (or whatever they use)

    So its going to be embedded artifacts. I've seen tracked maskes that allow processing of the image outside the mask one way and a lesser version inside the mask but its not ideal.

    Don't forget if the result looks horrible on an LCD/LED monitor but ok on a CRT HD monitor that won't help the viewers at home (except any with an HD CRT...)

     

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  • Sun, Apr 15 2018 3:05 PM In reply to

    Re: Progressive to Interlace frame phasing artifacting

    The edting is at 4K or HD resolution?

    In any case I would edit and export as progressive (try AMA File Export) and I would convert to interlaced using TMPEnc or Adobe Encoder.

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  • Sun, Apr 15 2018 3:49 PM In reply to

    Re: Progressive to Interlace frame phasing artifacting

    George Angeludis:

    The edting is at 4K or HD resolution?

    In any case I would edit and export as progressive (try AMA File Export) and I would convert to interlaced using TMPEnc or Adobe Encoder.

    But that makes delivery to AS-11 for UK Broadcast a pain. You'd have to reingest the fiel to then output as AS-11 and if you need to do fixes you need to do it all again.

     

     

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

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    T 07581 201248 | E pat@vet.co.uk | W www.vet.co.uk |


    Media Composer V8.2 Review Background Render

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  • Sun, Apr 15 2018 4:09 PM In reply to

    Re: Progressive to Interlace frame phasing artifacting

    And what if you deliever to progressive from the start?

     

     

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  • Mon, Apr 16 2018 8:44 AM In reply to

    • Bruno M
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    Re: Progressive to Interlace frame phasing artifacting

    Pat Horridge:

    This is a really common problem and its interesting that Drone footage seems to be the main issue. Lots of otehr 4K (or even HD) Progfressive content converts to interlaced fine.

    Which points to it being something to do with the actual content. My guess is there is compression issues coupled with the very small single sensor being used and de-beyering of that (or whatever they use)

    The tech specs for UK programmes are quite specific about what they expect in terms of the image quality. The BBC specs have a section for drone footage that says...

    'Cameras attached to these devices must meet the requirements in EBU R118 unless agreed with the broadcaster in advance.'

    The EBU R118 document referred to is a camera testing and tiering system carried out on many of the cameras used in productions. The specs ask for cameras to meet the Tier 1 or 2 standards except in cases where this may not be possible (eg. some documentary footage) but this has to be agreed beforehand.

    Pat Horridge:
    Don't forget if the result looks horrible on an LCD/LED monitor but ok on a CRT HD monitor that won't help the viewers at home (except any with an HD CRT...)

    The way I see it, an Online/Finishing Editor shouldn't really concern themselves with what a domestic TV viewer might have their TV set to. Modern TVs have so many settings that completely screw-around with the contrast. colour and motion estimation of the picture that make it really out of our control. What is important is for the delivered programme to comply with the specs that say...

    'HD and SD projects must be set to export progressively shot material as interlaced. Electronically generated moving graphics and effects (such as rollers, DVE moves, wipes, fades and dissolves) must be generated and added as interlaced to prevent unacceptable judder.'

    and...

    'There must be no noticeable horizontal or vertical aliasing, i.e. jagged lines, or field-rate or frame-rate fluctuations in fine detail... There must be no noticeable spurious signals or artefacts e.g. streaking, ringing, smear, echoes, overshoots, moiré, hum, cross-talk etc.'

    The fact is, I've seen LCD monitors that blur,  or sometimes completely mask some of these issues - especially when they're field related. Professional monitors should be fine, but the trend for buying cheaper, semi-pro monitors may cause problems, as they're really designed for progressive video.

     

     

    HP Z800, HP8760, SonnetFusion RAID, Mojo DX, Symphony 8.10, JVC DTV1910 HD tube monitor, HP Dreamcolor, Avid Artist Color [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Apr 18 2018 2:33 PM In reply to

    Re: Progressive to Interlace frame phasing artifacting

    Thanks knejmann I have tried using a soft overall guassian blur with pretty good results but not the vertical so will give that a go. We have a similar workaround as per your AFX one, using baselight from source then making 1080i quicktimes from the baselight media with good results too. This is not a big issue until we get some programs with a large amount of drones like one series that were basicallly using the drone as a B cam! So that workflow becomes very time consuming. The temporal/spatial thing makes sense BTW.

    Cheers

    Jake

    Company Avid Media Composer 7.0.4 x 9 licences with 2 x Symphony options. 6 x NITRIS DX 3 x Avid Artist DXIO, ISIS 5k. 3 x SRW 5500, 1 SRW 5800, 2 X M2000... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Apr 18 2018 2:37 PM In reply to

    Re: Progressive to Interlace frame phasing artifacting

    Thanks Bruno - hope it's not the monitor - in this instance we're using a Sony BVM-X300 !! Stick out tongue

    Company Avid Media Composer 7.0.4 x 9 licences with 2 x Symphony options. 6 x NITRIS DX 3 x Avid Artist DXIO, ISIS 5k. 3 x SRW 5500, 1 SRW 5800, 2 X M2000... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Apr 18 2018 2:40 PM In reply to

    Re: Progressive to Interlace frame phasing artifacting

    Thanks Pat - yes we have to convert to 1080i for broadcast and the issue is particularly bad on the AS11 file which is created by AMA file export. This process seems to enhance the problem. Might be worth us hooking it up to a domestic TV though and seeing how it looks and we will give the vertical blur a whirl and fingers crossed that does it ;)

    Company Avid Media Composer 7.0.4 x 9 licences with 2 x Symphony options. 6 x NITRIS DX 3 x Avid Artist DXIO, ISIS 5k. 3 x SRW 5500, 1 SRW 5800, 2 X M2000... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Nov 15 2018 1:58 PM In reply to

    • MikaS
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    Re: Progressive to Interlace frame phasing artifacting

    Found this workaround with Resolve. Did not test it. Maybe s.o. can report?

    https://thefinishline.pro/drone-footage-aliasingmoire-fix/

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  • Tue, Nov 20 2018 11:23 AM In reply to

    • Gretski
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    Re: Progressive to Interlace frame phasing artifacting

    The only cast iron solution for me is to export sequential TGA files to photoshop and batch  apply a small vertical blur..  Very long winded but OK for the odd short shot.

    Correct me if I am mistaken but I have not found any plugin or effect within avid that allows interfield blurring.  It just blurs the moire/ flicker.

    Asus X299, i7 7820, Nvidia 2000M 32GB ram, NVME SSD 8.9.1 ( yes its very fast!) [view my complete system specs]
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