Latest post Fri, Mar 9 2018 11:37 PM by SR555. 63 replies.
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  • Mon, Feb 26 2018 2:28 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Andrew so you are suggesting that I go ahead and import the media?  Since the clips are set up as AMA now, would there be a way to get that imported material to relink or would it cause a re-edit? (It may not be possible to avoid that anyway at this point).  

    I'm disappointed that AMA doesn't seem to be able to handle what it was intended to do, but still wondering if it's the source material and getting it set up correctly.  Hoping to avoid starting from square one but willing to do that if necessary.

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Feb 26 2018 2:42 PM In reply to

    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    I burn DVDs using Sorrenson Sq:

     

    In MC7, firsts transcode timeline (AMA sources only), then timewarp VTR from interlace to progressive, then in/out points render the entire timeline, then export to Squezz using the progressive DVD setting 16:9. And your good to go. I find using the green dots on the timeline useless. I never export from MC7 a timeline that has not yet in/out points been rendered before exporting timeline.

     

    Patrick

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  • Mon, Feb 26 2018 2:47 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Patrick do you mix down?

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Feb 26 2018 4:17 PM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    OK, after much testing, I am pretty much convinced that there's something very wrong with exporting using the DV/DVCPro CODEC within QuickTime. I ran a bunch of tests exporting the same interlaced clip in various formats which maintain interlace, and the DV/DVCPro clips all show artifacts. Exporting as Avid DV or MPEG-2 retains interlace, but does not show any artifacts.

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC(generally the latest or the one just before), MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

  • Mon, Feb 26 2018 9:50 PM In reply to

    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    DStone:
    Exporting as Avid DV .....  retains interlace, but does not show any artifacts.
    This could very well be the answer.

    I should have remember this. Back when DV first came out DVD's were all the rage for client delivery.  The Avid DV forums quickly found that the Avid DV codec was the best. We built our export templates around this codec and I have not really thought about it since then. 

  • Mon, Feb 26 2018 11:39 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Ok I wil do some tests. 

    Would this extend to the fact that the mpeg2 files from DVD were encoded to quicktime Avid DV, then AMA'd in?

    And then the exports out of Avid, as well as the mixdowns, were either same as source DV50, or send to quicktime movie>custom> avid dv>dv50ntsc.   Or quicktime reference dv.  I never got a clean encode or burn. 

    So this is built through and through of AvidDV quicktimes, with the exceptions of the progressive AMA'd m4vs, h264s, etc, all of which show jumping, ghosting or interlace artifacts not in the original file. 

    I am not sure alternate formats would link but will test with all of this in mind.

    It's worth noting the earlier posts with the attached screenshot, that when exported straight from the sequence to quicktime, the progressive clip was clean except for some jumping which may be in the original file, but when mixed down and then exported, was covered with interlace artifacts.  So it looks like the mixdown was adding it as well.


    SO I'm confused.  The DV25 and DV50 that are the same as source codecs - are these problematic or not?  Also it looks like the only real options to export are quicktimes. 

     

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
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  • Mon, Feb 26 2018 11:41 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Thank you for taking the time to do those tests.

    UPDATE- TESTING RESULTS

    Ahhhhh.... two different results from exports on the same clip.  (progressive clip, ama, progressive in source setttings, project 30i ntsc 16x9, 720x486,16x9 square pixel) , mixed down to dv25 411 and dropped into a sequence.  

    1) CLEAN:    Export>Sorenson squeeze in dropdown> dv stream> even> format options>DV, NTSC, interlaced, 16x9 

    2) ARTIFACTS:  Quicktime same as source   

    OK maybe now we are getting somewhere.  

    These have not yet been burned to a DVD or tested with an interlaced clip.  

    Still have a lot more issues to troubleshoot but this is a start.     

    --

    Exporting a test as a DV stream now from mixed down file - MAN this takes forever - 2 1/2 hours already for a dv25 (2 hour) sequence - only 3/4 done  -sucks not to be able to use same as source

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Feb 28 2018 2:08 AM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    UPDATE

    On a DVD burned to the DV stream setting and then the Squeeze DVD ES setting, there are still some interlace type artifacts in progressive clips. The VCR letters are still "jumping" a bit and do have "toothy" edges.   Letters have some ghosting and some small black-line-jumping-dotting artifacts moving through them.  

    There is a general blockiness to things which may also be the source files or just the DV25 setting although it was there on the DV50 setting.  Quality is the next thing to troubleshoot once the interlace is handled.

    Hate to make it progressive and lose half the information, considering the files are low quality to begin with.

    These artifacts are subtle - but there- in the quicktime export, much amplified on the DVD.

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Feb 28 2018 3:46 AM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    If the clips were originally interlaced, and then converted to progressive, the artifacts may in fact be baked in, in which case you're pretty much stuck (unless you want to try and add some edge blur to soften the edges a bit). There comes a time when you have to call it done, no matter if it's perfect or not. Some things just can't be easily fixed (or fixed at all).

     

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC(generally the latest or the one just before), MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

  • Wed, Feb 28 2018 5:09 AM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    YEs we may be at that point.  I'll do more testing and post back. Having come this far, I'd like to complete the project in Avid and not give up and rebuild it in Premiere.  I really wanted to challenge myself to see it through.  

    I don't think they are baked in but might be. Will test the clip in question.  Will be going more in depth as you suggested with the field order swapper next.

    The artifacts did improve with the DV stream but are still problematic in some areas.  Will know more in the next two days and make a decision.  

    The jumping on the VCR letters is not in the source files though, and much worse on the DVD. 

    BTW thanks to everyone for hanging in on this very long thread and ongoing issue.  I've learned so much from this. It's been a really informative thread that will surely be useful also to future people dealing with these issues. 

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Feb 28 2018 11:35 AM In reply to

    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    The ingest process for "unknown" sources is critical in a workflow. When working with known spurces you can ingest and check content and proceed from there.

    But if the sources have come via an unknown or complex route its critical that the ingest method and resulting media is very carefully checked. Any issues not picked up and resolved then cause massive issues later and the resultant unpicking.

    Not much help here but as a heads up for others.

    After ingest check all content carefully do sample outputs and check its upto the job.

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  • Thu, Mar 1 2018 9:22 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    I don't see an image>field swap effect.  Does it exist in some form in MC7?  thx

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Mar 4 2018 1:36 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    I'm doing the last-ditch efforts to fix this before giving up. 

    UPDATE:

    1) The progressive exports are significantly better going straight to dv (not perfect), bypassing the quicktime codec bug.  I'm closer to resolving that, and might need to convert those mp4s to avid dv p.

    2)  The other 2/3 of the project is interlaced (ama).  They are VOB files upper field, converted to Avid DV lower field in mpeg streamclip.  

      -- They are "stair stepping," indicating a reversed field order, in the source window.   

    Here is what's happening with the settings:

    Avid AMA flagged most of the interlaced clips as progressive, DVNTSCp (and .67 aspect- grrr).  I changed the source settings to interlaced, lower field first.  Stepping through the fields showed a progressive pattern -movement, still, movement, still.   They still read in the "video" column as DV50p NTSC - can't change it. 

    However, the "field motion" bin column remained listed as "progressive."  When I changed this to interlaced, the clips showed the jerky "stair stepping' motion in the source monitor.   In the composer window, the motion varied.  Some "corrected" to a progressive pattern.  Some remained stair-stepped.    

    (The h264 shows a progressive pattern even when flagged as interlaced.  The source file is 2 hours long, a combination of interlaced and progressive material, and flags in mediainfo as progressive.  My guess is it was rendered out from the previous editor's timeline.   However it's the best quality of any of the DVD media).  

    I found this thread "Field Order Fixing"- could these issues be related?  https://community.avid.com/forums/p/104858/606653.aspx

    Some - not all- of these did not deinterlace properly in streamclip on tests, so there's that also.  At least partly baked in.

    Previously, I was unable to get any clean DVD at all, under any setting. Testing these now.  

    Just to verify, what is the best practice for handling upper field VOB files to be converted to lower field DV, then edited for re-output to DVD? I handled this properly, correct?  

     

     

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, Mar 4 2018 9:51 PM In reply to

    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    SR555:

    2)  The other 2/3 of the project is interlaced (ama).  They are VOB files upper field, converted to Avid DV lower field in mpeg streamclip.  

      -- They are "stair stepping," indicating a reversed field order, in the source window.   

    Here is what's happening with the settings:

    What happens if you do not convert the field order in streamclip??
    A few days ago I saw a Field order chart stating that the "Avid DV codec" field order was Upper field first. At the time I dismissed this as poor information. Your 2) statement suggests it could possibly be correct in your situation.  Worth trying any way!  

    A quick check / fix suggested on another site would be to put a short clip on a timeline. Leave a space on the timeline and add the same clip again this time crop the top of the image by 3 lines. Field step through each clip.  I have not tried this and have my doubts that it is achievable but probably worth looking at.

  • Sun, Mar 4 2018 9:56 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Hmmm. I've changed it in the source settings, but not in the clip itself.  Will do a test. 

    Is it normal that the source and composer monitor would be seeing a different field step pattern?  And a progressive one at that on some clips.

    UPDATE 

    Fixed the field order stepping.  Lines still there.    Exported progressive lines are in it- may be baked in that clip. Exporting tests now.  May be baked in that clip, let's see if it interlaces other areas.

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
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