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  • Thu, Feb 15 2018 6:26 AM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Update:

    Burned to mpeg2 in Squeeze with the suggestions above, and with no deinteralce filter.  am still in the process of experiementing with DStone's suggestions from an earlier thread for noise settings, etc, so that's next.

    4500 bit rate:

    Brought into Encore> it forced a re-transcode=crap

    Burned straight to Toast = crap.   

    7500 bit rate was pretty much the same.  They are both jumping a bit, and both have interlace artifacts. Less on the Toast burns.   There is also a big problem with jaggies on diagonal, straight or high contrast edges, in all.    And they were both 'jumping' on the edges.  There are camera date stamps at the bottom of some shots and the lines look interlaced, or at least "lined," and ghosted.  They are jumping just a bit.  

    Coudl this possibly come from the encode between mpeg2 (pulled from DVD, but upper field first) to Avid DV (lower field)? 

    Also, I thought the aritfacts, which are grainy 'dots' around the edges and some haloing, would go away with the removal of the color corrections, and only remain on underexposed shots. (Mpeg2 to avid dv 50 to color correction is a bit much for a small SD file).    But they didn't. I'll compare more tomorrow but it's hard to compare the quicktimes, and the original mpegs, because it's hard to see the artifacts due to interlacing.

    These burns were from a qucktime reference file.  I am buring a straight quicktime tonight. 

    Will post specs from mediainfo tomorrow for the files.  

    And here we are again.

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  • Thu, Feb 15 2018 6:38 PM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Let's see a detailed workflow, from iproject settings in Avid all the way up to the final encode. We need to know all the settings for each step. Also a detail of the actual clips involved (interlaced/progressive, bitrates, etc.)

     

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC(generally the latest or the one just before), MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

  • Thu, Feb 15 2018 10:34 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    DStone:

    Let's see a detailed workflow, from iproject settings in Avid all the way up to the final encode. We need to know all the settings for each step. Also a detail of the actual clips involved (interlaced/progressive, bitrates, etc.)

     

    Spot on Dave.  Once we get that and if it isnt obvious, I can enage Luc our design guy

    Marianna

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  • Fri, Feb 16 2018 5:47 AM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Thanks all, I"m in process putting that together.  It's a fairly long list of media.  

     

    Time is getting really short.  My deadline really is a monday deliverable this time, no wiggle room.  

     

    I'm at my wits end.  I'll finish first thing in the morning and post it. 

     

     

     

    Update: Still working on it, there are many more small files but many of them were pulled in the same batch as the ones listed.  The specs are similar. Here is a representative summary so far covering the bulk of material in the sequence.   

     

    Origins of these files:

     

    1) Files that were given to me (through 1998).  

     

    2) Files from DVDs - both fully transcoded DVDs, as well as smaller clips pulled from the VOB file in Mpeg Streamclip under "save as", making no changes, just naming them.

     

    3) For documentation purposes I demuxed some of the DVDs, and included the specs of the M2v files.  THey are not directly linked.  These were instead encoded to Avid DV (also listed) directly from Mpeg Streamclip, in one file.  

     

    A few things that stuck out at first glance -

    Would these impact it?  The problems are edge jumping, "mosquito" dots around edges and motion, and sawtooth edges in straight lines, esp. high contrast.   In the 'recital" file, I was not able to remove these by re-encoidng in any filed order, or by deinterlacing.   This was one of the clips pulled from a DVD "save as."  I do not have the original material. 

     

    1) some of the mp4s (not all) have variable frame rates.  In addition, most of the files (post 1998) are Avid DV and  have a constant frame rate, but some of the original m2vs show variable. 

     

    2) Some have display aspect ratio flagged at 3:2, and show original display as 4x3.  Would this be related to files that came in at .67 aspect and drove me crazy reformatting them to 4x3 each relink?  It looks like this might have happened when encoding to avid dv.

     

    3) One of the mp4s given to me shows 29,97 frame rate but an original of 25fps.  

     

    Screenshots attached.   If someone could spot what might be causing crappy encoding, jumping and arifacting, that would be very helpful.   Thank you  

     


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  • Fri, Feb 16 2018 8:27 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    First page


    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Feb 16 2018 8:52 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    WORKFLOW:

    Files are AMA'd in.    

    Project: 30i 720x486, 16x9 with 4x3 "reformat" material contained within.  

    Basic transitions (dissolves and dip to color), sparingly used, and only two titles.    Occasional motion effects which may need to be redone since I just re-relinked 1999 to an Avid DV (it was a motion jpeg).   There are a few clips at 30 and 40 percent.  Also, not affected by the relink, are about another small 8 or 9 clips with either 300% motion or 30%.  They were rendered in the motion effects window in the source viewer.   

    Exports were either:

    1) mixdown, export same as source, native dimensions or 16x9 square pixel.

    2) mixdown or direct from sequence, native dimensions, to quicktime avid dv 50, 720x486 16x9, deinterlace NOT checked (since it does nothing anyway).

    3) Qucktime reference, various combinations, sometimes qtref dv codec, sometimes regular. Either native dimensions or 16x9 square pixel.    

    Then import that into Squeeze.  DVD_ES or PS, 29.97, NTSC, 16x9 and unconstrained, 16-235 color checked, no deinterlace filter (global removed).   Last time around, global crop added (auto), have not checked it yet.   Bit rates I have experiemented with are 4500 (for single layer dvd) and 6500.  All jumping a bit, and tearing, Artfacts are blocky.  Some letters jump a bit.  Other artifacts as detailed earlier. Interlacing artifacts are present, sometimes prevalent, sometimes just flashing into certain scene areas.

    Am in the process of experimenting with other settings such as the I frames and the noise reduction, but have to still view those tests.   

    Heck of a tackle for a first Avid project!  Yikes.


    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Feb 17 2018 4:22 AM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Update:

    I had to come clean and let her know I needed more time to troubleshoot the project.  I re-trasncoded the files to dv50 progressive and relinked them in a new project (same settings).  But still there isn't a progressive option for an SD project, so it's still interlaced.

    720 progressive format setting scales the incoming AMAs, center keep size does nothing, so I cannot keep them original size and just change the project dimensions.   

     

    At this point, here are the questions:

     1) is there anything that jumps out about this footage or workflow that would cause this?

    2) Am I maybe not cropping the project correctly and that is causing scanline weirdness and a failure to deinterlace? (Just autocrop in Squeeze, and 720x486 dimensions in Avid sent to 16x9 square pixel).

    3) Is AMA for sd interlaced material simply broken and I need to give up and migrate this to Premiere, as opposed to building it from scratch?

    4) If so, is there an easy way to do that?  The project is 99% AMA, 2 hours long with thousands of clips and I suspect anything I transcode out would also be problematic. 

    I really am committed to learning Avid and would prefer to NOT give up, and finish it here.   However sometimes "putting the cat down" can't be avoided.  Avid is the gold standard - would be very disappointed (and surprised) if it could not handle such a fundamental task as outputting an AMA project for a DVD.  Would really be grateful if someone could advise as how to proceed.   

    Thank you

     

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Feb 19 2018 10:50 PM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    DVDs are interlaced. That's the standard. Converting to progessive and then back to interlaced just adds a lot of artifacts. When you hear about progressive scan DVDs, what they're really talking about is 24P material that's encoded as fields using a 3:2 cadence (this gets you 24 frames into a 60 field output).

    To start with, you want to transcode everything not 29.97i to 29.97i lower field first using the least compressed format that supports it and for which you have room. If it's already in 29.97i LFF, leave it alone (technically the MPEG-2 for the DVD can be either UFF or LFF, but the NTSC standard is LFF). Even though it's more compressed, I tend to use DV 25 411 MXF as this is NTSC standard.

    Cut your master sequence with no transitions etc. Look at each clip in the sequence one at a time. If tthere appear to be interlace errors, try adding the Image->Field Swap effect to that clip and see if that fixes the error. Then add in transitions, etc.

    Now do a video mixdown to DV 25 411 MXF. Export same as source and use that for encoding to MPEG-2.

    A big part of the issue that you're having is that the initial mix of media has both progressive and interlaced with different field orders.  Looking at all of the SD video in progressive, it's hard to now what field order they were in to begin with. That's why you may need to swap the field order for clips.

    It's not a question of AMA being broken. It's a question of the material coming in. A lot of the material has already been compressed at least once. Now you need to recompress it to get it all normalized, then you're going to compress it again for encoding to MPEG-2. Needless to say, this leads to artifacts.

     

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC(generally the latest or the one just before), MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

  • Tue, Feb 20 2018 12:32 AM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Thanks Dave.  

    So what you are seeing then is that it's likely the source material.  So you recommend then that I switch back to the interlaced clips?  (Deinterlacing wouldn't be my preference, it was just an emergency measure.  Then Avid interlaced that so it didn't help really). 

    >>Cut your master sequence with no transitions etc. Look at each clip in the sequence one at a time. <<

    Ok will do.

    About half of the material comes from DVDs pulled "save as" from the VOBs in mpeg streamclip to a .mpeg file.  I only have a few of the source DVDs and have done the same thing with those.  According to mediainfo, the M2Vs as well as the VOBs were upper field first, then were converted to AvidDv50 lower field for editing. 


    Does that sound like a recipe for unfixability?   Those do have jagged edges on diagonals, which will not go away no matter which field order is chosen in the AMA source settings.  

    The other half of the material is from mp4s that were already progressive, and two long ones are interlaced.   I will ask her what the source was and maybe that will tell us something about its origins.  

    Also, is there a reason would choose the field swap effect over changing the AMA source settings?  Is it better?

     

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  • Tue, Feb 20 2018 2:33 AM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Like I said, the MPEG-2s can be either upper or lower field first. There's simply a flag in the header. It doesn't really matter as it simply means it will display the odd field first and not the even field. DV is lower first. I've cut a lot of DVDs from DV, and it probably did change the field order. I've never had issues visually.

    The problem is really in interlaced material which was converted to progressive. There's really only 2 ways of doing that; the first is to simply replicate either the even or odd field and discard the other. You lose 1/2 the information this way. The other (better, but not always used) is to interpolate consecutive even and odd fields to make a single progressive frame. There are several variants of this, from simple field blending to motion compensating algorithms.

    You have to get rid of fields when converting to progressive, because if you encode the fields as-is you will see interlace artifacts when played back on a progressive monitor (i.e. computer monitors and HDTVs). That's because it will play back the scan lines in order and not lower then upper (or vice versa). Not being able to see the progressive material you have, it's impossible to know how they were encoded. I'm going to presume that one of the fields was duplicated to make the progressive video.

    The idea of field swapping vs. changing the source setting is you're trying to end up with 1 identical format for the timeline. Using the effect is a quick way of seeing if it made any changes of note.

    Of course, there's also a 3rd alternative. If your client is willing to forgo DVD in favor of BluRay you could cut everything as 30P (known as 480P). It's a perfectly acceptable format for BluRay. Unfortunately, I don't have a workflow for that one. I'm sure you can get it out of Squeeze (modify the BluRay 720P to 720x480 @ 30 frames).

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC(generally the latest or the one just before), MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

  • Tue, Feb 20 2018 4:12 AM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Good information.  I may have some questions regarding this once into the troubleshooting. 

    She likely won't do BluRay.

    Ok. So regarding the origin of the files, I was unable to get a clear answer, but it looks like she had mountains of material transferred all at once to DVD a few years back.  She was unaware where the m4v files on the drive came from, so they were likely pulled by the prior editor.  I'm guessing from those DVDs.  She also had one other editor prior to that so who knows how many times those files have been processed.

    As to the original format, she says they were a Sony VHS camcorder, Canon 8mm, and Sony small disk camcorder.

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Feb 20 2018 5:58 AM In reply to

    • DStone
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    The m4v's have to be a re-encode from something else. DVDs are all MPEG-2's (unless they were encoded as data disks and not video disks, in which case m4v's could have been used). The 8mm tapes are all going to be DV video. The VHS could have been captured in almost anything. THe small disk recorder is MPEG-2.

    If the m4v's were pulled from video, then they're already a re-encode from the MPEG-2. If these are the progressive media, then you've already lost a lot of information. And the flow of information looks something like:

    Camera (interlaced)->MPEG-2 (interlaced)->MPEG-4 (Progressive)->DV 411 MXF (interlaced, editing)->MPEG-2 (interlaced)->DVD

    No matter what you do, this is going to be hard to salvage. Especially if you try and get 2 hours of this onto a single sided DVD.

    In looking it over, it might be best to use DV50 as the editing CODEC. I'm not really sure it will help a lot, but given what you've got it certainly won't hurt.

     

    DIY quad core I7-4790K, 16Gb, NVidia GTX 970 4GB, Win 10 Pro, MC(generally the latest or the one just before), MC 7.x [view my complete system specs]

    Dave S.

  • Tue, Feb 20 2018 10:01 AM In reply to

    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    My approach would be to create an interlaced project.

    AMA link the sources and check what MC is soing in terms of interlaced or progressive.

    Then field step through each source and confirm is it interlaced or progressive and whats the field order.

    If its progressive then you will see movement in the picture (beyond a small up and down jig) every 2 field steps.

    If interlaced you will see movement every field step and if the field order is incorrect you will see movement jump ahead 2 then back one as you step through fields.

    Any clips with incorrect field order need to be modified until they match the project. Progressive clips need to be checked that they are flagged as progressive.

    As already siad DVD's are interlaced and progressive content will be converted to interlaced (but still play as progressive so expect some differenc ein the feel of the content)

    2 hrs on a single layer disk from content thats laready been DVD ripped so will have mpeg artifacts will look poor. No two way about it. 90 mins max for me an 60 mins if I want reasonable quality. Its imprerative you do a good multipass MPEG2 encode and thats a lot of settings to tweak and get right.

    But the key is getting a reasonable source file that will play and look ok.

    Playing on your desktop yyou will see interlacing artifacts. thats because you can't display interlaced on your desktop. SO the tearing is normal. Most players like VLC have a de-interlace option but remember that is doing de-interlacing on the fly and hiding those normal artifacts. But it will then also hide field order issues.

    The safest test is to AMA the exported SAS file back into an interlaced AVid project and play it to an interlaced display. failing that field step during movement in each clip to chekc field order.

    When and only when you are sure you have a good source with all the same field order or progressive can you move onto the encoding. And ideally that should,t be de-interlacing unless you decide to lose more quality.

     

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  • Tue, Feb 20 2018 12:33 PM In reply to

    • SR555
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    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    Ok guys thanks . Looks like there is a long day of field order troubleshooting ahead which will start with relinking the project back to teh interlaced media.

    I just though the best way to go past this would be to get past the interlacing entirely by deinterlacing and rebuilding in Premiere in a progressive project.   

    But it's also important to not rely on workarounds and to fully understand how these issues affect this and future projects.  Have to get her a workng project asap so I'll get on it.

    One note, I did identify eariler a clip that did the movment jump - two forward, then back.   Went into source settings, reversed the field order to upper, but it made the field flicker and jump worse, being that it was a lower field project. Will the field swap affect it differently?

    If the field order was reversed at the time the clip was saved, then on top of that the source clip was encoded to Avid DV50, then AMA'd into the project, is that fixable?  Remember that the actual source clips are interlaced VOB (upper)>"save as" to .mpeg(upper) to AvidDV50(lower).   ANd what if they were originally recorded lower field on top of that?

    Will it be necessary to demux the .mpeg files and re-encode to AvidDV?   I did check and the field order appears to be the same in the ,mpeg and the m2v.  

    Avid Media Composer 7, Macbook Pro Retina, Mountain Lion [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Feb 20 2018 12:52 PM In reply to

    Re: I just can't solve this interlacing! Still can't output, project due.

    You can go the safer route and de-interlace all the content (take care not to de-interlace progressive content!)

    But that will soften the content.

    The field swap effect should resolve the issue but you need to render that to make modified media.

    ACI Moderator. I'm not employed by Avid or work for them. I just do this in my spare time. Normally using the current Media Composer version on My... [view my complete system specs]

     

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    T 07581 201248 | E pat@vet.co.uk | W www.vet.co.uk |


    Media Composer V8.2 Review Background Render

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