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  • Fri, May 13 2011 2:39 AM

    • C.A.M.
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    10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    There has been a few threads here and elsewhere concerning the operation of 10 bit media in and out of Composer. Think some items are in need of repair or clarification from Avid.

    ISSUE 1

    Imports. Apparently the only way 10 bit material can be brought into Composer is via QT import of DNXHD X codecs, possibly the packed codec and tiff sequence. 

    Everything else is truncated to 8 bits and pretty poorly I might add compared to methods like dynamic rounding.

    What is the limitation here and why does it exist?

    We don't always make the material we are asked to work with it may come to us in many flavors, especially graphics. Avid simply needs to be a true 10 bit friendly application all around. 

    ISSUE 2

    Interchange. The BIG PROBLEM is that 3rd party applications like After Effects are not able to use Avid 10 bit codecs properly. The problem appears to be with the Avid codecs themselves. They do not present the 10 bit the option when accessed on either Mac or PC. 

    This of course is not an issue with Black Magic Codecs, Apple Pro Res or other 10 bit codecs. Just Avid's 10 bit codec. 

    Other than tiff sequences there is no way to make Avid 10bit friendly material. And tiff sequences are not always a good choice. 

    So that pretty much kills the ability to externally transcode material given to us in other 10 bit codecs into Avid friendly codecs.

    It also adversely affects the areas hurt most by 8 bit processing or truncation...graphics and effects. Lots of banding and other artifacts. Tsk tsk. 

    What is the story? Why is it happening? Is there a plan to fix this? 

    How on earth can these truly be called 10 bit codecs if they do not work as such in most interchange activities. 

    ISSUE 3

    Exports. Only way to get 10 bit out of Composer is via DNXHD X codecs, possibly the packed codec and tiff sequences. MAYBE. 

    While other applications report these files being 10 bit, in many cases they don't look it. 

    Is there a difference between a same as source export from Avid and a "forced" custom export to one of the Avid 10 bit codecs like DNX HD?

    ISSUE 4

    Does AMA bypass the import issue when linking to Quicktimes we are forced to create in properly functioning 10 bit codecs from other manufacturers like Apple, Black Magic and etc?

    I think it does but I have not had time to test this extensively. 

    What happens to bit depth when I transcode AMA linked 10 bit material into Avid 10 bit codecs?

    What happens when I transcode things like P2 AVC-INTRA 100 into the Avid 10 bit codec?

    What happens to Pro Res 10bit and 4:4:4 when transcoded via AMA to DNXHD X or Avid 1:1 10b?

    AMA is not a good solution for graphic design and effects workflow anyway. 

    CONCLUSION

    Keep in mind that just because an application or utility reports a media file being 10 bit doesn't mean that the content of that container is 10 bit.

    So it would be great to get a definitive concrete answer from Avid or users on what is properly supported. What does work and what doesn't. And when these problems may be solved.

    THIS IS A VERY BIG DEAL. 

    Solutions are greatly appreciated. 

     

     

     

    Symphony Nitris DX, Composer Nitris DX, MC Soft [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, May 13 2011 3:02 AM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Totally agree on this.  Quite confusing and concerning.  An Avid Product Manger promised to respond to a similar question a few days ago:

    http://community.avid.com/forums/t/95863.aspx?PageIndex=5

    We are still waiting on that response.  Hopefully he - Avid Dave PM - will chime in here and give some clarification. 

    These are fundamental issues of quality that some of us are trying to build our businesses on.  We need transparency (double entendre intended) from Avid on this.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC 8.4.5 / 8.5.2 | OS 10.10.x / OS Yosemite - various MacPro Towers - home system MacPro Dual 2.8 8core GTX680 "Harpertown"... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Fri, May 13 2011 4:21 AM In reply to

    • Tim
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    I agree, as I have just recently started playing with 10bit files, we need clarification on this.

     

     

  • Fri, May 13 2011 8:08 AM In reply to

    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Thank you for starting this thread; I was beginning to think it was only a problem that I had when exchanging shots with VFX guys:

    Only same a source RENDERED Avid codec quicktimes are able to export 10 bit.

    AE imorts them as 10 bit, Nuke truncates them to 8 bit, so does a QT pro.

    The only QT import that is 10 bit is from a 10 bit codec QT created by Avid.

    The only workaround is, as you say, Tiffs.

     

    Symphony 7.06 OS 10.9.5 QT 7.6.3 Mac Pro 2x2.66 6-core 32GB Ram Aja Kona 3. MC 7.0.6 OS 10.9.5 Mac Pro 5.1 2x2.97 6-core 14GB ram Aja I/O express, Apple... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, May 13 2011 12:05 PM In reply to

    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Bump

    Symphony 7.06 OS 10.9.5 QT 7.6.3 Mac Pro 2x2.66 6-core 32GB Ram Aja Kona 3. MC 7.0.6 OS 10.9.5 Mac Pro 5.1 2x2.97 6-core 14GB ram Aja I/O express, Apple... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, May 16 2011 1:11 AM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Guys...

    Jef just pinged me to bring my attention to this thread.  It i late Sunday night so I will run this up the flag pole first thing tomorrow am.  Not sure if Dave C is reachabe but a few of the designers are so stand by.,... might take me a bit to get a response but I will do what I can.

    marianna

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  • Mon, May 16 2011 3:56 AM In reply to

    • C.A.M.
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    AMAZING Marianna. THANK YOU!

    There is absolutely no mention of these issues in the application release notes or read me files as a known limitation.

    I could not find anything in the documentation with the codecs or on the knowledge base either. 

    So it would be absolutely fantastic to get the straight dope from someone who knows.

    Would save hours of additional experimentation, disappointment and growing suspicions.

    Seems like a pretty important, if not critical issue to me. 

    If it has been around as long as I think, no point in getting anyone spun up on a Sunday night. Can certainly wait for clarification during sensible business hours.

    Just good to know someone is looking into this. 

    Thanks again. 

     

    Symphony Nitris DX, Composer Nitris DX, MC Soft [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, May 16 2011 4:42 PM In reply to

    • cuervo
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    NubusAvid:

    The only QT import that is 10 bit is from a 10 bit codec QT created by Avid.

    The only workaround is, as you say, Tiffs.

    So, if I read this correctly, bringing in Cineform, 10-bit files via AMA, then transcoding to an Avid DNx220x does NOT maintain the 10-bit color depth?

    This has been my assumed workflow, exporting to QTref or QT same as source.

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  • Mon, May 16 2011 5:57 PM In reply to

    • C.A.M.
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    cuervo:

    So, if I read this correctly, bringing in Cineform, 10-bit files via AMA, then transcoding to an Avid DNx220x does NOT maintain the 10-bit color depth?

    This has been my assumed workflow, exporting to QTref or QT same as source.

    Actually. I don't think we have a clear answer on that.

    AMA is not importing. It is linking. It may very well preserve the 10bit Cineform files. There has been some dialog which suggests that but does not confirm it. 

    Transcoding and rendering effects may be the real question. It could very well dumb the Cineforrm to 8 bit. 

    Think the longer folks go without answers on the limitations of the Avid 10 bit workflow the more folks start to guess and worry.

    There has been a lot of speculation based on a few unpleasant surprises regarding file based exchanges. 

    Hopefully some solid answers are on the way. 

     

     

    Symphony Nitris DX, Composer Nitris DX, MC Soft [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, May 16 2011 6:17 PM In reply to

    • cuervo
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    As a test, I created a blue gradient in Photoshop and saved it as a tif.

    Bringing this file into AE confirms that it is 10 bit.

    Then bringing this file into Avid MC5.5 via both AMA and DNx220x, and placing them on the timeline, I see banding on the AMA linked file; and, no banding- a nice smooth gradient on the 220x import. Exporting these as a QT-same as source, I see the same effect.

    I'll now repeat with Cineform format instead of tif.

     

    EDIT: I just realized that these tests are rediculous because I'm viewing on an 8-bit display..Huh?

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  • Mon, May 16 2011 6:45 PM In reply to

    • Joe M
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Cuervo...

    Not at my machine... but, my memory has it that when you use color correction in AVID the 10 bit level is shown... but, edits as 8 bit and preview quality can not be seen during edit as 10bit.... so... when you say you see banding... do you mean in an exported file format and not in the AVID preview window?  If you are viewing from the timeline (not in the color correction mode), you can not see 10bit in AVID MC's preview window of the timeline.

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    .

  • Mon, May 16 2011 6:54 PM In reply to

    • C.A.M.
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Just to clarify.

    You imported the tif via regular import selecting DNX220X as the compression and got clean results?

    This is what we see and agree is true 10bit. Tiff import seems to be the only "real" method to ingest 10bit video or graphics.

    I qualify that as "real" because technically an import of DnxHD X files should result in 10bit as well.

    However, it appears that the DnxHD X quicktime codec does not function properly outside of Composer so there is no way to make real 10 bit DnxHD X quicktime files elsewhere.

    Of equal concern is how to get 10bit material out of the Avid via quicktime. Is there a difference between Same as Source exports and Custom exports?

    Also. I hope you are incorrect about the general function of AMA as many folks are hoping to link tasty 10 bit Pro Res files from their Alexa's, Ki Pros and other recorders. Some are hoping to link 4:4:4 material. Perhaps this is just a limitation of working with TIFFs as such. 

    Wonder what is happening with my AVC INTRA 100 footage?

    This is much easier to evaluate with graphics. 

    MXF based 10 bit workflows through applications like Baselight may be a different story and could be without issue. 

    Unfortunately not many applications allow creating MXF.

    Just need to know the facts.

    cuervo:

    As a test, I created a blue gradient in Photoshop and saved it as a tif.

    Bringing this file into AE confirms that it is 10 bit.

    Then bringing this file into Avid MC5.5 via both AMA and DNx220x, and placing them on the timeline, I see banding on the AMA linked file; and, no banding- a nice smooth gradient on the 220x import. Exporting these as a QT-same as source, I see the same effect.

    I'll now repeat with Cineform format instead of tif.

     

    Symphony Nitris DX, Composer Nitris DX, MC Soft [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, May 16 2011 7:55 PM In reply to

    • cuervo
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    I see banding in both the preview window and in the rendered and exported Same as Source. Ahh, yeah, thanx for the clarification re: the preview window. I forgot about that.

    SYS1:ASUS Z97, Haswell 4.0GHz CPU, 32GB RAM, Quadro 4200 + GTX1070, Thunderbolt II -DNxIO-FSI CM171 ///SYS2:ASUS Maximus Extreme V, Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Mon, May 16 2011 7:59 PM In reply to

    • cuervo
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    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    C.A.Magid:

    Just to clarify.

    You imported the tif via regular import selecting DNX220X as the compression and got clean results?

    YES, THAT'S CORRECT

    This is what we see and agree is true 10bit. Tiff import seems to be the only "real" method to ingest 10bit video or graphics.

    I qualify that as "real" because technically an import of DnxHD X files should result in 10bit as well.

    However, it appears that the DnxHD X quicktime codec does not function properly outside of Composer so there is no way to make real 10 bit DnxHD X quicktime files elsewhere.

    Of equal concern is how to get 10bit material out of the Avid via quicktime. Is there a difference between Same as Source exports and Custom exports?

    I AM STILL LOOKING AT THIS

    SYS1:ASUS Z97, Haswell 4.0GHz CPU, 32GB RAM, Quadro 4200 + GTX1070, Thunderbolt II -DNxIO-FSI CM171 ///SYS2:ASUS Maximus Extreme V, Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz... [view my complete system specs]

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  • Tue, May 17 2011 1:58 AM In reply to

    Re: 10 bit Codec / Workflow Clarfication

    Hi,

     

    Marianna asked me to look into this, I've asked for clarification and will post when it is received.  

     

    Dave

     

    cuervo:

    C.A.Magid:

    Just to clarify.

    You imported the tif via regular import selecting DNX220X as the compression and got clean results?

    YES, THAT'S CORRECT

    This is what we see and agree is true 10bit. Tiff import seems to be the only "real" method to ingest 10bit video or graphics.

    I qualify that as "real" because technically an import of DnxHD X files should result in 10bit as well.

    However, it appears that the DnxHD X quicktime codec does not function properly outside of Composer so there is no way to make real 10 bit DnxHD X quicktime files elsewhere.

    Of equal concern is how to get 10bit material out of the Avid via quicktime. Is there a difference between Same as Source exports and Custom exports?

    I AM STILL LOOKING AT THIS

     

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