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  • Sat, Mar 5 2011 9:58 AM

    • Paddywack
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    Adobe CS4 New 1050 x 576 "16x9" format???

    I recently had some problems importing some graphics that had been created in After FX CS4 and when I investigated further I found that they were 1050 x 576 PAL QT's. Basically, MC wasn't having any of it. I got the graphics people to re-render everything at 720 x 576 anamorphic in After FX and all was OK. However I thought I had better find out what this 1050 x 576 pixel thing was all about and found this excellent yet confusing article attached below: http://www.mikeafford.com/blog/2009/03/pal-d1-dv-widescreen-square-pixel-settings-in-after-effects-cs4-vs-cs3/ Basically it says that we should be creating graphics as 1050 x 576 to fit into a 16x9 digital frame, however there are some queries towards the end of the comments section relating to how Avid in particular handles these graphics in its 1024 world. I quote the question posed by Mike Afford below and wonder whether anyone here or within Avid has a definitive answer to what is a very confusing issue:

    Let’s say your NLE can only function using 1024 pixel wide images. Those 1024 images are still going to be squashed down to 720 at some point… So I’d say it pretty much depends on how the NLE in question handles that 720 conversion.

    (Scenario 1)
    If it just takes all the 1024 pixels and squashes them down to 720 then when it gets broadcast and re-adjusted for viewing on a wide-screen monitor it will still be needing those extra pixels. So perhaps what you should be doing is building everything at 1050 in Photoshop or After Effects but do your final (pre-edit) output at 1024. Basically do a little squash (not a crop) down to 1024 before you start editing. This way you’d hope that the 702 centre pixels (of 720) contain the information from the centre 1024 pixels from the original (1050) image.

    (Scenario 2)
    But I wouldn’t rule out the possibility that a particular NLE has been designed to add those extra pixels itself (by adding black maybe?) *before* doing the 720 conversion. In which case you should still be building everything at 1024. (Or at 1050 and then *cropping* to 1024 before it hits the NLE).

    Phew….

    Either way, I’d say there’s no harm in building all your source material at 1050 – at least that way you have the option of cropping to 1024, squashing to 1024, or leaving it at 1050.

    Interestingly the oft quoted BBC web page http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/tvbranding/picturesize.shtml has been recently removed. Maybe even the BBC are confused! It is archived here: http://web.archive.org/web/20080522181935/http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/tvbranding/picturesize.shtml Unfortunately without the images. A few other useful links: http://kaophoto.blogspot.com/2010/01/cs4-sd-widescreen-resolution-1024-vs_16.html http://library.creativecow.net/articles/gerard_rick/pixel_madness.php http://lurkertech.com/lg/pixelaspect/ http://www.animationpost.co.uk/bitmaps/aspect-ratios.htm

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  • Sat, Mar 5 2011 11:04 AM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Adobe CS4 New 1050 x 576 "16x9" format???

    I have never heard of 1050. I always use 1024 x 576 square pixels in Photoshop for SD projects and these graphics import well into Avid (I also export frames at 1024 x 576 too). Basically you should always make sure broadcast safe margins are taken into consideration visually within Photoshop rather than try calculate cut-off with numbers. 1050 x 576 is always going to interpolate with unpredictable results from Photoshop to Avid's 720 x 576 16:9 non-square world.
  • Sat, Mar 5 2011 12:01 PM In reply to

    • Paddywack
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    Re: Adobe CS4 New 1050 x 576 "16x9" format???

    Mercer:
    I have never heard of 1050. I always use 1024 x 576 square pixels in Photoshop for SD

    I agree, but if you read the article by Mike 1050 x 576 does make sense (I think). The basic idea is that if you make your graphics 1024 x 576 import them into an editor then display on a digital broadcast monitor they will be very slightly distorted i.e. a circle will come out slightly oval.

    1050 x 576 is the new preset for DV/D1 PAL in After FX CS4. The preset hasn't made it into Photoshop yet.

    The question posed at the end is whether an editor that uses a 1024 frame size (i.e. Avid) does something clever when outputing to digital video to compensate for the extra pixels that need to be inserted (according to Mike's explanation) or whether the picture is always going to be distorted. I too have always created Photoshop files and After FX files as 1024 x 576, but it seems that this has been wrong all along.

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  • Sat, Mar 5 2011 12:17 PM In reply to

    Re: Adobe CS4 New 1050 x 576 "16x9" format???

    Mercer:
    1050 x 576 is the new preset for DV/D1 PAL in After FX CS4. The preset hasn't made it into Photoshop yet.

    No, those presets DID make it in Photoshop cs4

    That is why I created my own Pixel aspect ratios for Photoshop:
    -PAL 4:3:   1.066        for 720x576 to get 768x576
    -PAL 16:9  1.422        for 720x576 to get 1024x576

    to work correctly when importing in avid

    wim

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  • Sat, Mar 5 2011 1:15 PM In reply to

    • Paddywack
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    Re: Adobe CS4 New 1050 x 576 "16x9" format???

    editorbelga:
    No, those presets DID make it in Photoshop cs4

    You are right. Just had a look at CS5 on my Macbook and the presets are there. Infact the settings menu shows the relationship between Pixel Aspect and Frame aspect quite well:

     


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  • Sat, Mar 5 2011 1:17 PM In reply to

    • Paddywack
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    Re: Adobe CS4 New 1050 x 576 "16x9" format???

    Widescreen 1.46 PAR


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  • Sat, Mar 5 2011 1:19 PM In reply to

    • Paddywack
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    Re: Adobe CS4 New 1050 x 576 "16x9" format???

    4 x 3 1.09 PAR


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  • Sat, Mar 5 2011 1:29 PM In reply to

    Re: Adobe CS4 New 1050 x 576 "16x9" format???

    Indeed, that is why, I made some changes in my photoshop:

    -In View> pixel aspect ratio, I deleted all the PAR aspect ratios, so I never get tempted

    -I created there too 3 pixel aspect ratios:
    ----PAL 4:3    1.066
    ----PAL 16:9  1.422
    ----HD  TR     1.333

    wim

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  • Sat, Mar 5 2011 1:31 PM In reply to

    • Paddywack
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    Re: Adobe CS4 New 1050 x 576 "16x9" format???

    This link to the Kau blog sort of explains a workflow for AfterFX that makes sense which you could also apply to Photoshop:

    http://kaophoto.blogspot.com/2010/01/cs4-sd-widescreen-resolution-1024-vs_16.html

    • Master Composition : 1050x576 PAL D1/DV Widescreen Square Pixel
    • Web Composition : 1024x576 Square Pixels (exactly the same as the CS3 WS Square preset)
    • DVD Composition : 720x576 PAL D1/DV Widescreen

    Quote:

    The "Master Composition" will be as it sounds, this will be the main composition inside which I will create my project.  It will contain all the footage, motion graphics, particle effects and other bangs and fizzles generally associated with AE.

    This Master will then be nested inside the "Web Composition".  This is a true 16:9 format composition which can then be uploaded toYoutubeVimeo, hosted on your own website or wherever.  The left and right edges of our frames will be cropped by 13 pixels each, which isn't really a problem if you obey the "Action Safe" guidelines.

    The Master is also nested inside our 3rd compostion, the "DVD Composition".  This is 720x576 pixels, so it's already set appropriately (remember, without the little extra on the side, it's actually 702 pixels wide, so this width has always been correct in past versions of AE, as far as I know).

     

    Part 2 shows a workflow for pre CS5 Photoshop:

    http://kaophoto.blogspot.com/2010/01/cs4-sd-widescreen-resolution-1024-vs.html

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  • Sat, Mar 5 2011 3:46 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Adobe CS4 New 1050 x 576 "16x9" format???

    I understand what you are all saying Paddy but clearly there is a difference between the way digital TV broadcast and the web/computers/LCD and CRT TVs and Adobe deal with this (and analogue TV broadcast too). It is no wonder that the BBC removed that very confusing document. I have not got CS4 (I'm still on an older version of both Photoshop and FX) so I've missed this.

    But consider this:

    1024 x 576 is truly 16:9 square pixels (16 x 64, 9 x 64) and on an LCD computer monitor is WYSIWYG if your project is 16:9.

    Whereas 720 x 576 (4 x 180, 3 x 192) is not truly 4:3, which of course in square pixels is 768 x 576 (4 x 192, 3 x 192).

    Therefore both widescreen 16:9 and regular 4:3 SD involved some anamorphic stretching of the native 720 x 576 digital ratio when broadcast. When compositing in Adobe both 1024 x 576 and 768 x 576 will import to Avid with the same geometry as long as the import settings are full frame and the project is 16:9 (702 pixels is the broadcast horizontal under scan. It is not 702 x 576 since you do not see the full 576 lines either). All digital SD PAL D1/DV formats are of course 720 x 576 and 1024 (16:9) and 768 (4:3) is only for computer WYSIWYG square pixels.

    1050 x 576 is not square and I don't know why Adobe use it but there obviously is a good reason, that you probably outlined and I'm not reading too carefully. It could be as is implied obviously for mastering directly from Adobe After FX and if you're doing this then the presets should all work (surely you output and transcode for the web 720 x 576 with widescreen flag as I do). But I don't understand the point of having an extra 13 pixels each side that will be discarded on a non-square ratio which cannot be WYSIWYG.

    For broadcast 720 x 576 either in 4:3 or 16:9 widescreen involves some overscan and this is why you have safe action and title areas plus the happily dissappearing 14:9 for those with only 4:3 sets. So it is not important to know the actual difference between the raster size of the format and the available viewing pixels, only that safe guidelines for broadcast and the ability to see full scan on the web can have different implications. But then I generally master for TV and crop if necessary anything unsightly for web.

    In any case what I'm saying (I'm confusing myself now) is that you could be making life more complicated for yourself than sticking to 1024 x 576 for WYSIWYG whilst finishing in either Avid or Adobe. I have never noticed problems with the geometry whilst either in Adobe or Avid, sticking  to the above method, on many BBC programmes that I have cut, but then I haven't got CS4 and completely disregard me if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

    Finally the only problem I get with web and vimeo delivery is various cameras and their blessed black bars down the side. some are completely clean but others need cropping for full over scan web viewing.

  • Sat, Mar 5 2011 4:50 PM In reply to

    • Paddywack
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    Re: Adobe CS4 New 1050 x 576 "16x9" format???

    Mercer:
    you could be making life more complicated for yourself than sticking to 1024 x 576 for WYSIWYG whilst finishing in either Avid or Adobe. I have never noticed problems with the geometry whilst either in Adobe or Avid

    I agree entirely. Although it is not me that is making life more difficult it is Adobe who now say that PAL D1/DV is 1050 x 576! And to be honest I don't completely follow Mike's description in the link in my first post.

    This all came about because a graphic designer started supplying me with QT files that were 1050 x 576 and I wanted to know what was going on. My workaround for him was to get him to output from After FX as 720 x 576 anamorphic DV files and then they fast import into Avid with no problem. I've never noticed any distortion, but then again a picture stretched by 26 pixels would be hard to spot. the upscaling on my JVC LCD broadcast monitor probably introduces more aberrations anyway.

    Mike was involved in designing the current BBC weather graphics which are broadcast pretty much 24 hrs a day and prominently feature a round "weather sphere". I guess he wanted to make sure he got it right.

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  • Sat, Mar 5 2011 4:54 PM In reply to

    • Paddywack
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    Re: Adobe CS4 New 1050 x 576 "16x9" format???

    You would want to get this right really!


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  • Sat, Mar 5 2011 6:21 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Adobe CS4 New 1050 x 576 "16x9" format???

    Paddywack:

    You would want to get this right really!

    Again I understand Paddy but what I am saying is that for me there are 2 routes only to output. If it is broadcast then Avid played out to a broadcast deck. Or if it is web then Sorenson Squeeze using predefined broadcast spec of 720 x 576 with either the 16:9 flag set for widescreen or 4:3 if not, allowing for the fact that unlike TV the image will be full scan.

    I do not master from After FX. What I am saying I suppose is that a composition created at 1024 x 576 within After FX cannot then change geometry when imported correctly to Avid since it is truly 16:9. I don't understand how it could. Maybe with After FX now being able to work with Blackmagic Design etc. 3rd party hardware for physical output there are other different requirements.

    In any case I would stick to the 720 x 576 anamorphic DV delivery format that you say works OK and fast imports precisely because it is 720 x 576. It does not matter how your designer achieves his images as long as they are correct for you. As I said 720 x 576 is not square pixels and has never been but it matters only that it displays as either 16:9 or 4:3 correctly and for all broadcast output and web players will (or should) display in the correct aspect ratio if correctly encoded. QT player is one of the few that seems to have problems with this but I always use MPG4 for the web now.

    Incidentally I am sure that BBC document is incorrect and was pulled because its author became confused by his own subject (as we are to be fair). It contains an imperfect understanding of the way a broadcast PAL signal is overscanned. You could try contacting the BBC for current broadcast guidelines.

     

  • Sun, Mar 6 2011 2:06 AM In reply to

    • jwrl
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    Re: Adobe CS4 New 1050 x 576 "16x9" format???

    It appears to me that Adobe' designers have made a logical error.  Square pixel PAL 16:9 is in fact 1024 pixels by 576, as can be determined by multiplying 576 x 16, then dividing by 9.  Similarly PAL 4x3 square pixel is 768x576.  Both are encoded to anamorphic 720x576 for practical use.

    The argument advanced by 1050 proponents is based on older analog CRT-based displays, and assumes that only 702 pixels are used, and are stretched to fill those 720 pixels.  And this would be a serious cause for concern if this was in fact the case.

    When Adobe issued their alert about this "problem" in the CS3 days I performed some tests.  I created two circle test charts in Photoshop using square pixels.  The first was a 768x576 PAL 4x3 image, the second a 1024x576 16x9 one.  I then resized each to produce anamorphic 720x576 graphics.

    To duplicate the argument based on the 702 vs. 720 pixel frame, I then produced a second set where I resized the originals to 702x576 pixels.  These were modified by changing the canvas size to 720x576, giving a 9 pixel black border down each side.

    I imported these four test charts into Avid MC, Adobe CS2 AE, Adobe CS2 Premiere, and FCP.  I didn't use CS3 because the wording of the Adobe bulletin left me uncertain as to whether they were already "correcting" for this so-called error or not.

    In every case the anamorphic 720x576 images gave more circular results than the 702x576 pixel versions.  The different versions were displayed on a Sony Wega flatscreen CRT monitor, a Sony Profeel monitor, and in the case of CS2, a window in an Apple 24" Cinema monitor.

    Do your own tests - they're not hard to set up - then make up your own mind.

    For the last several years I've been working with 1080/25p masters and down-scaling to SD where needed, so it hasn't been an issue for me anyway.

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  • Sun, Mar 6 2011 10:50 AM In reply to

    • Paddywack
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    Re: Adobe CS4 New 1050 x 576 "16x9" format???

    This article explains it fairly well:

    http://www.sciencemedianetwork.org/wiki/Tutorials/Video/Pixel_Aspect_Ratio

    As I understand it (not very well) The problem seems to have arisen because of the difference between Analogue (702 non square pixels wide) and Digital (i.e. DV/SDI or equivalent at 720 non square pixels wide) and computer generated using square pixels and then NLE's which tend to use 720 pixels but with a different pixel aspect ratio to DV.

    To quote:

    "Some video editing applications use a pixel aspect ratio of 16:15 for DV-PAL timelines, which is about 1.067 (let's call this non-linear editor 'NLE-PAR'). Strangely, this is different from the pixel aspect ratio for PAL video (PAR of 1.094). With this pixel aspect ratio, the 720x576 non-square pixels of such a timeline are equivalent to 768x576. A square drawn in such a timeline, and exported to 768x576 remains a square."

    This article also does a good job of explaining why we are in this mess in the 1st place:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_aspect_ratio

    also Adobes explanation here:

    http://help.adobe.com/en_US/PremierePro/4.0/WS03BF7479-8C7B-4522-8C75-210AD102524Ea.html#WS082E922A-A5D7-4de1-9A0E-1EFC401EA6D1

    it would be good if Avid could clarify how MC handles pixel aspect ratios.

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