Latest post Sun, Oct 3 2010 2:45 AM by Larry Rubin. 11 replies.
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  • Fri, Jul 2 2010 11:21 PM

    • kzhang
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    • Joined on Fri, Jul 2 2010
    • Posts 7
    • Points 85

    data transfer rate or data storage, which is more important to video editors?

    Hey all!

    I am a research associate for a technology incubator in Austin, TX. I am now conducting the market research for one of our portfolio companies. This is a solid state drive storage manufacturer based in Austin, Texas. It has the world’s most advanced data transfer technology and can accelerate the data transfer speed to as high as 2GB/s. With its cutting-edge data transfer technology, this company believes it is going to revolutionize the whole video editing experience.

    However, I have been struggling to understand what video editors really want. I am not sure whether higher data rate or larger data storage is more important to the users. The tehcnology is competely based on the SSD. And the high SSD price results in a high price for the storage device. I wonder whether users are willing to pay money just for a faster data transfer rate.

    What do you guys think about this?

    To help this company better understand the market, I sincerely invite you to participate in our survey. You will have the honor of being part of this technology revolution! I will draw one winner out of all the participants. The winner will get a free SSD storage! This survey only consists of 10 questions. I truly appreciate your time. If you have any questions, please feel free to reach me at kzhang@ati.utexas.edu

     

     

    Here is the link to the survey.

    <<Weblink removed by moderator>>

    Since I can't post the link to the survey here according to the terms of use of this forum, please email me at kzhang@ati.utexas.edu if you want to participate in the survey.

  • Sat, Jul 3 2010 2:08 AM In reply to

    Re: data transfer rate or data storage, which is more important to video editors?

    Hello kzhang and welcome to the Forum.

    Your idea is intriguing and I'm sure you'll get plenty of responses here in this thread. I must, however, remove your weblink. Please review the terms of use. You may certainly provide that link to anyone who emails you.

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Mon, Jul 5 2010 7:39 PM In reply to

    • kzhang
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Fri, Jul 2 2010
    • Posts 7
    • Points 85

    Re: data transfer rate or data storage, which is more important to video editors?

    Hey Larry!

     

    I have fixed the thread per your request. It is my first time to this froum and I will not post the link again next time.

  • Mon, Jul 5 2010 7:56 PM In reply to

    Re: data transfer rate or data storage, which is more important to video editors?

    No problems, kzhang. And let me be the first to offer up some comment. I think most users here would agree that transfer rate AND data storage are equally vital, as many terabytes of storage gets quickly eaten up by the higher HD resolutions and working lossless at 1:1 10 bit. To give you some idea of what we are dealing with, here is Avid's storage calculator tool. Play around with it selecting various different HD formats and you'll see what I mean. Probably the most used and popular of the HD resolutions in Avid are DNxHD 145 and DNxHD 220. The most popular formats seem to be 1080i at 59.94 fps, and 720P at 23.976 fps.

    Throughput is equally vital to us when working with multiple streams of HD (layers in the timeline) that are effects intensive and must playback without so much as a hiccup in realtime with effects unrendered. Not to mention the need to increase speed of imports and exports. The Avid software is some of the most demanding ever written for a desktop environment and is a memory and resource HOG. It pushes our computers right to the edge of their performance limits and beyond, and as HD progresses into the future, I'm sure that the file sizes will only get larger, and the speed of transfer as well as additional storage capacity remaining the critical issues they are today.

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Mon, Jul 5 2010 8:21 PM In reply to

    • kzhang
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Fri, Jul 2 2010
    • Posts 7
    • Points 85

    Re: data transfer rate or data storage, which is more important to video editors?

    Larry,

    Thanks for your comments.

    Here is the list of data rate for HD I have found:

    Storage and Data Rates for Uncompressed Video

    What's the data rate for uncompressed video, and how much space is needed?

    The storage and data rates for uncompressed video are listed below.

    525 NTSC uncompressed;
    8 bit @ 720 x 486 @ 29.97fps = 20 MB per/sec, or 70 GB per/hr.
    10 bit @ 720 x 486 @ 29.97fps = 27 MB per/sec, or 94 GB per/hr.

    625 PAL uncompressed;
    8 bit @ 720 x 576 @ 25fps = 20 MB per/sec, or 70 GB per/hr.
    10 bit @ 720 x 576 @ 25fps = 26 MB per/sec, or 93 GB per/hr.

    720p HDTV uncompressed;
    8 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 105 MB per/sec, or 370 GB per/hr.
    10 bit @ 1280 x 720 @ 59.94field = 140 MB per/sec, or 494 GB per/hr.

    1080i and 1080p HDTV uncompressed;
    8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 95 MB per/sec, or 334 GB per/hr.
    10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24fps = 127 MB per/sec, or 445 GB per/hr.

    8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 99 MB per/sec, or 348 GB per/hr.
    10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 25fps = 132 MB per/sec, or 463 GB per/hr.

    8 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 119 MB per/sec, or 417 GB per/hr.
    10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 29.97fps = 158 MB per/sec, or 556 GB per/hr.

    1080i and 1080p HDTV RGB (4:4:4) uncompressed;
    10 bit @ 1280 x 720p @ 60fps = 211 MB per/sec, or 742 GB per/hr.
    10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 24PsF = 190 MB per/sec, or 667 GB per/hr.
    10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 50i = 198 MB per/sec, or 695 GB per/hr.
    10 bit @ 1920 x 1080 @ 60i = 237 MB per/sec, or 834 GB per/hr.

    For the editing purpose, you need the thruput at least three times of data rate. If we take the highest resolution requirement, it will give us around 800MB/s. However, we can support as high as 2GB/s. I think our technology is a little bit too advanced to average users for the time being.

    Only DALSA RAW and ARRIRAW may require that high thruput. Some REDONE users may also need our products. 

    With the high price of SSD, there is no way for us to lower the price to a reasonable level for avreage users. And It  seems that our target market should just be Hollywood, but we worry that market is not big enough for us to breakeven and make profits. We think consumer market should be our target market. However, it is really up to the progress of technolgy.

    Do you see in the future we will have higher and higher data transfer rate requirement and more and more average users are willing to pay money for that?

     

    Thanks!

  • Mon, Jul 5 2010 8:39 PM In reply to

    Re: data transfer rate or data storage, which is more important to video editors?

    If you believe the entry price level too high for the average consumer, which I believe is accurate given that many "prosumer" users coming over to Avid Media Composer for the first time are always looking for the cheapest bottom line, focusing your initial efforts on Hollywood and the multi-room broadcast market makes sense to me. And I believe if you were to investigate, you'll find that almost all TV stations and networks in major metropolitan areas are operating in a multi-room shared storage environment, so that market niche may be considerably larger than you think, especially as it pertains to news gathering, editing and broadcast. Our system at TPC would be indicative of that as well. However, most all of these facilities including mine, operate in a shared storage environment, mostly Unity ISIS. How would your SSDs integrate into that type of environment? Have you done any beta testing, either with just an Avid local stand alone, or in a Unity system? Do you have any kind of ball park pricing estimate per drive that you can reveal here? And keep in mind that the Avid user community goes well beyond the boundaries of the United States...it is truly a world wide market.

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

  • Mon, Jul 5 2010 8:58 PM In reply to

    • kzhang
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Fri, Jul 2 2010
    • Posts 7
    • Points 85

    Re: data transfer rate or data storage, which is more important to video editors?

    We have also been thinking about TV station marekt as well. It think the majority of them use NAS instead of just a simple external hard drive disk or solid state drive. We have talked to ISILOn, the dominating NAS producer for TV stations. We thought about integrating our SSD technolgy into their NAS, but we realized that it might be a good fit as we expected.

    I do agree with you, TV station market should be another big market. I am also doing market research about that, like the trend of digital TV, 3D TV. and higher and higher resolution requirement. It is going to be a market we will continue to discover. I think that market is going to boost our growth in the future as well.

    In terms of our product development, it is still in lab testing stage. The prototype should be ready by Dec.

    Here are some price points for reference:

    Capacity: 448GB
    Write Speed: 900MB/s
    Read Speed: 1800MB/s

    Price: $1990

    Capacity: 896GB
    Write Speed:1800MB/s
    Read Speed: 1800MB/

    Price: $3990.

    This price based on a 100% gross margin. And our major cost is the SSD. If the SSD price continues to drop 25% for the next few years, our product price will also drop accordingly.

    We are also thinking about having larger storage. We understand the current storage space is not enough of uncompressed editing.

     

  • Tue, Jul 6 2010 4:29 AM In reply to

    • dermot
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Vancouver, Canada
    • Posts 524
    • Points 6,220

    Re: data transfer rate or data storage, which is more important to video editors?

    I'm using an Avid DS for 2K finishing, and my storage and access speed needs are even higher than the HD444 option, our market ( high end finishing) maybe the first to support this technolegy

    What are the power & heat draws? Physical size?

    The prices are not out of line in my world, as long as i can stack several of them without loosing speed, or killing my UPS or HVAC.. i currently have two arrays on each of my systems, one array on Esata for compressed media, and one on SAS for uncompressed 2K/444

    I would look at these as an option for my next machine given the price point & performance, i suspect many others would as well.

    But my market (high end finishing) is MUCH smaller than the general editorial market... hundreds of FCP's & MC seat's out there for every DS / Mistka/ Scratch / Baselight / Resolve / FilmMaster  / Smoke / Luster / eQ / Flame seat that someone is keeping warm...

    d/

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    8600 - 3700 - AJA 2Ke - u320 array - Dream Color [view my complete system specs]
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  • Tue, Jul 6 2010 7:45 PM In reply to

    • kzhang
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    • Joined on Fri, Jul 2 2010
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    • Points 85

    Re: data transfer rate or data storage, which is more important to video editors?

    Format

    Bit depth

    Resolution

    Chroma sampling

    Bitrate

    File size

    Inter-frame?

    Algorithm type

    DV

    8 bits

    720×480 (NTSC), 720×576 (PAL)

    4:1:1 or 4:2:0

    25 Mb/s

    217 MB/min.

    No

    DCT (lossy)

    DVCPRO50

    8 bits

    720×480 (NTSC), 720×576 (PAL)

    4:2:2

    50 Mb/s

    423 MB/min.

    No

    DCT (lossy)

    AVCHD

    8 bits

    1920x1080, 1440x1080, 1280x720

    4:2:0

    24 Mb/s

     

    Yes

    DCT (lossy)

    AVC Intra

    10 bits

    1920x1080, 1440x1080, 1280x720

    4:2:2

    50 or 100 Mb/s

     

    No

    DCT (lossy)

    HDV

    8 bits

    1280×720, 1440×1080

    4:2:0

    19-25 Mb/s

    142 MB/min. (720p), 190 MB/min. (1080i)

    Yes

    DCT (lossy)

    XDCAM HD422

    8 bits

    1280x720, 1920×1080

    4:2:2

    50 Mb/s

     

    Yes

    DCT (lossy)

    XDCAM EX

    8 bits

    1280x720, 1920×1080, 1440×1080

    4:2:0

    25-35 Mb/s

    190 MB/min., 262 MB/min.

    Yes

    DCT (lossy)

    DVCPRO HD

    8 bits

    960×720, 1280×1080, 1440×1080

    4:2:2

    100 Mbit/s

    423 MB/min. (720p60), 835 MB/min. (1080i60)

    No

    DCT (lossy)

    HDCAM

    8 bits

    1440×1080

    3:1:1

    144 Mb/s

     

    No

    DCT (lossy)

    HDCAM SR

    10 bit

    1920×1080

    4:2:2 or 4:4:4

    440 or 880 Mb/s

     

    No

    DCT (lossy)

    Panavision SSR

    10-bit PanaLog

    1920×1080

    4:2:2 or 4:4:4

    up to 3 Gb/s

     

    No

    Uncompressed

    CineForm RAW (SI-2K)

    10-bit Log

    2048×1152

    Raw Bayer

    100-140 Mb/s

    900 MB/min.

    No

    Wavelet (lossy)

    REDCODE RAW

    12 bits

    4520x2540, 4480×1920, 4096×2304

    Raw Bayer

    224-336 Mb/s

    1.6-2.5 GB/min.

    No

    Wavelet (lossy)

    ARRIRAW

    12 bits

    2880×2160

    Raw Bayer

    ~ 5.6 Gb/s

    42 GB/min.

    No

    Uncompressed

    "DALSA" RAW

    16 bits

    4096×2048

    Raw Bayer

    ~ 3.2 Gb/s

     

    No

    Uncompressed

     

    Here is more info from Wikipedia

  • Tue, Jul 6 2010 8:08 PM In reply to

    • kzhang
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Fri, Jul 2 2010
    • Posts 7
    • Points 85

    Re: data transfer rate or data storage, which is more important to video editors?

    Dermont,

     

    Here is the physical size of our product for the time being:

    Dimensions (in): 3.5*7*0.5

    Weight: 0.5lbs

     

    This physical size is for both the 448GB and 896GB storage.

     

    One more advantage for our product is the physical size. It is way much lighter and easier to carry with than traditional HDD. The main challenge for our product is its high price due to the high price of SSD. As SSD price drops, our product might become more affordable to the general market. We also realize that our storage capacity is not big enough for pro users in Hollywood, but we can make customized products instead. Our core technology is the SSD controller, which determines the data rate.

     

    We have also done some research about the movie market and realize Hollywood might be the right market to enter. As the table I put in the last post, only few formats require this transfer rate. 2k and 4k formats should be right fit for our product. Digitalization and high resolution are the trends of Hollywood, and we believe our product should be a perfect fit for the next generation of machine. As time moves on, the prosumer and consumer market might also find our product attractive as well.

     

    Thanks a lot for your comments! They are very beneficial for our market research.

  • Thu, Jul 8 2010 5:04 PM In reply to

    • kzhang
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Fri, Jul 2 2010
    • Posts 7
    • Points 85

    Re: data transfer rate or data storage, which is more important to video editors?

    Hey guys!

    I am still looking for more ppl to participate in the survey. I truly appreciate your help.

    Regards,

     

    Kai

  • Sun, Oct 3 2010 2:45 AM In reply to

    Re: data transfer rate or data storage, which is more important to video editors?

    Kai:

    There's an interesting discussion about SSDs going on right now in this thread.

    Newscutter Nitris DX 9.5.3.5 * Media Composer 5.5.3.6 (At Home on PC running XP Pro) * Symphony 6.5.2.1 (At home on MacBook Pro3,1 running 10.7.2) * Interplay... [view my complete system specs]

    Larry Rubin

    Senior Editor

    The Pentagon Channel

    www.pentagonchannel.mil

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