I am a huge avid fan!  However, I have a documentary that I have been working on for 4 years (hence the xpress pro - I didn't want to change up a good system mid-edit).  I can't afford to do a sweet online, and so plan to migrate the project once I have picture lock to FCP so that I can finish it in Apple Pro Res 4:2:2.  Questions:

Can I XML the project FROM Avid to FCP?  Everything I have tried to find out about this involves going in the other direction (ie from FCP to Avid).

Should I do a hard print to tape out of avid and then just digitize that back into FCP?  That can't be loss-less right, b/c of the dv 5:1 compression..?

Do I need a mojo so I can go 1:1 out of avid and into FCP?  I sort of get this, but wonder would I need to rebuild my project in FCP?

Sorry if these questions seem dumb, I am just really stuck, and also, really broke!

 

THANKS!

 

Sasha, do you already own FCS? If not, then why would you pay for that software when:

A.) The upgrade to MC from Xpress Pro is a paltry $395

B.) You already are familiar with the Avid interface and would not have to worry about the transfer to another product.

If you already OWN FCS, then I can maybe see your reasoning.

I know you mention being really broke, but look at Pro Import FCP it's $500USD, likely worth every penny for your situation.

Demo video 1:  http://www.automaticduck.com/products/pifcp/pifcp2-avidtofcp640.html

Demo video 2:  http://www.automaticduck.com/products/pifcp/PIFCPwitMedia-480x300.html

But, if you don't already own Final Cut, then I agree with BLKDOG about upgrading to MC.

 

Sasha-ann:

I can't afford to do a sweet online, and so plan to migrate the project once I have picture lock to FCP so that I can finish it in Apple Pro Res 4:2:2.

Both BLKDOG and Kenton have good points.  I just have another question.  What format did you shoot your material with?  If it was DV, DVcam or DVCpro going to Apple ProRes is not going to improve it.  Your comment

Sasha-ann:

That can't be loss-less right, b/c of the dv 5:1 compression..?

suggests that is in fact the case.  So it's now the best quality that it will ever be.

Next question: what is your planned release format?  If you're going to DVD or web release, again you'll gain nothing by going to any higher res codec.  Even if you're not, a simple playout via Mojo to digi Beta will give you the best quality that you can expect from DV originals.  If you don't have a Mojo, play out to your DV deck and dub from that to digi Beta.

Right, I forgot to say that I have footage on DV cam - both original footage, and footage that has been transferred from Super 8mm and betamax to DVCam.

I hope to finish in digibeta and/or HDCam - although I am worried that HDCam will just not look very good.

When you say "play out" from DV to digibeta, do you mean print to tape (via firewire) and then dub from that to digibeta?

Won't I lose a lot due to "double digitization" - meaning, the footage is digitized once when I get it into avid, then output and digitized *again* to get it into FCP?  

I don't have a mojo, but I have been considering trying to rent one, OR also possibly going the route of Pro Import FCP to get my footage into FCP - but then it is still 5:1 compressed!

 

Thank you so very much for your time - I appreciate it!

 

Sasha

Sasha,

What is 5:1 compressed? Your source material?

Outputting your program via firewire to a DVCAM master is the best quality you can expect from starting with DVCam material.

 

jwrl:

What format did you shoot your material with?  If it was DV, DVcam or DVCpro going to Apple ProRes is not going to improve it.

bobcat:

Outputting your program via firewire to a DVCAM master is the best quality you can expect from starting with DVCam material

So the question is, why go to FCP at all?  Because it really does appear that it's needless extra work for no gain.

Thank you so much for responding! This is all so incredibly helpful.  The 5:1 compression number I am getting from my research into the mojo....my understanding is that people use the mojo to capture DV footage as uncompressed component video (as opposed to video captured via FW).  

From my avid xpress book: "With a Mojo-enabled system, you can capture, render, and edit 601 standard def (SD) analog video at 1:1 compression, which is a much higher-quality video than DV (which has an inherent 5:1 compression)."  

Hence, my obsession with compression - especially if I need to up-rez eventually to HD Cam.  It's hard for me to understand how different it might look, visually, to just stay in DV land, as opposed to invest in mojo and/or an online via avid symphony that would allow me to re-digi everything as component.

 

Sasha

If footage captured via Component/SDI from an analog tape source (ie, BetaSP) is brought in at 1:1 then it's considered "uncompressed" because no further compression is applied.

DV footage is considered "5:1" because it is not a totally uncompressed source.  It is compressed 5x as much as what the same footage on BetaSP would be. 

It's my understanding that bringing in DV footage via FireWire is just a transfer of 1's and 0's thus no further compression is applied.  Conversely the same footage capture through a Mojo at 1:1 even at Component would also be "uncompressed".  But, it's now in analog form. 

I have seen DV footage that was blown up to a full 35mm print and it looked very good.  But, in those cases it was known from the very start what the final deliverable was going to be and many tests were done to learn the limits of the DV format and how it would transfer.  After the tests were done then everything was shot knowing the limits and lots of the budget went into the color grading etc.

When you capture through firewire it is just a data transfer, so even though DV footage is inherently 5:1 compression it doesn't get recompressed when you capture. If you've captured your DVCAM footage through firewire then the easiest way to get it to a FCP system would be to export a quicktime with DV codec (make sure you don't use the Avid DV codec and set the levels to RGB, not 601, so that FCP will read it correctly - test a short section first).

Alternatively, play it out to a DVCAM tape and then capture that tape back into FCP.

This should give you identical footage to what you have on your Avid. (unless you've added colour grading and effects, but I'm guessing you want to do that in FCP)

If you captured it through a mojo using analogue connections then it has been through a generation loss and you may want to think about taking an EDL into FCP to redigitise. If you do this then only export the video layer in the EDL, not the sound (FCP used to have issues with compex EDLs, although they may have improved this).

With your non-DVCAM footage you might want to consider re-digitising that, depending on how much there is. Again, an EDL is the simplest way to get this to FCP, but take a DV quicktime as a guide to make sure it all captures correctly.

Are you sending the audio to an audio house to finish? Or sending that to FCP? That's a separate issue but you can export an OMF/AAF to Soundtrack Pro without too many problems if you need.

cheers

Campbell

Sasha-ann:

With a Mojo-enabled system, you can capture, render, and edit 601 standard def (SD) analog video at 1:1 compression, which is a much higher-quality video than DV (which has an inherent 5:1 compression).

What you appear not to be understanding is that if you have compressed your video using a lossy codec like DV, transcoding it or recapturing it using an uncompressed codec (or another lossy codec like ProRes) will not improve it.  To do so you would have to be able to replace the missing components lost in the first compression.  This you patently cannot do.

As I asked earlier, why go to FCP at all?  It just appears to be needless extra work for no real gain.

Going to FCP will allow my post-supervisor to color-correct in an environment more familiar to him - that's the main reason.

 

Sasha 

To take an Avid sequence to FCP the only worthwhile method is Automatic Duck's Pro Import FCP. It will transfer all important clip metadata and sequence structure, some transitions and will provide information where transitions were not able to be transferred. Transferring the media files from the Avid, while possible is often more trouble than it's worth, it's a far better idea to recapture the media in FCP.

However as others have said, if all your source footage has originated from DV tape then a Firewire capture as DV into Avid (Xpress Pro or Media Composer) will not lose any quality at all, what you get in Avid is a bit-for-bit copy of what's on the tape.

If FCP (or maybe Color?) is the platform your guy is familiar with then there's not really much point arguing the point on that. If you're happy with the overall look and setup in your Avid cut, then you could render it all at 1:1 (this will prevent quality loss in transitions and effects) then export the entire thing our as a Quicktime to import into FCP - you won't have an editable sequence, but that's the quickest way to get the finished edit into FCP. If you're using Color then you can apply an EDL to the clip to add cuts to it for grading purposes.