Hi Avid Gurus,

I hope this post finds you well... !

My name is Chris Hocking, and I am a long time Final Cut Pro user who has recently made the leap over to Avid. Firstly, let me say that I really love some of the unique features Avid has to offer, and so far have found everything to be extremely stable, fast and reliable. Basically, everything just seems to, well, work, which is nice!

I am running Avid Media Composer 3.0.5 on a 2 x 2.8 GHz Quad-Core MacPro with 2 GB of RAM running Mac OS X 10.5.6 and Quicktime 7.6.0 (Build 1290).

The problem I'm having at the moment is developing a good Avid to DVD Studio Pro workflow that's reliable and maintain the correct colours/gamma throughout the whole process. I've spent the morning looking through the forum archives, as well as a lot of time reading through articles found via Google - however I'm still slightly confused about the whole 601 vs RGB settings, and the way Avid handles the importing and exporting of both Quicktimes and Graphics (such as TIFFs).

Let me give you an example project so that you have some idea of what I'm on about.

Let's say I'm working on a 35mm commercial that's being shot overseas. The rushes are transferred overseas and file transferred to me at Quicktime H.264s (PAL 25fps). Some other footage has been shot locally and is given to me in the form of DVCAM tapes (also PAL 25fps). Finally, the graphics department has given me a whole collection of title cards in the form of 1024 x 576 Square Pixel TIFFs (which were just thrown together in Photoshop with no regard for "broadcast safe" colours, pixel aspect ratio, etc.). I have to bring all these elements into the Avid, put together a rough cut, and export as a DVD using Apple Compressor to do the compressing, and DVD Studio Pro to create the DVD.

Ok... Seems easy enough!

After reading through forum after forum my general understanding is that:

1.The RGB space is basically for graphics and compositing work. In 8-bit RSB, 0 is black and 255 is white. Correct?
2. The 601 space is basically designed for broadcast video. In this world, 16 is Black and 235 is white. Correct?
3. When you import a file into Avid using the 601 setting it leaves the levesl of the imported object alone. Correct?
4. When  you import a file into Avid using the RSB setting it crushes everything so that 0 is remapped as 16 (black) and 255 is remapped as 235 (white). Correct?
5. If you import a graphics (i.e a TIFF that is 0-255), if you use the RGB setting it will crush everything to the legal luminance values. Correct?
6. If you import a Quicktime that was created in video space, then the 601 setting leaves everything alone. Correct?

So given all this, presuming I'm working in a DV 25 4:2:0 OMF Avid Project, and that my final delivery will be DVD via Compressor and DVD Studio Pro, also given that I want the DVD to look exactly the same as it does on the timeline...

7. Should I import my H.264 footage in as 601 or RGB? I'm presuming 601. Correct?
8. Should I capture my DVCAM footage as 601 or RGB? I'm presuming 601. Correct?
9. Should I import my TIFFs are 601 or RGB (keeping in mind the TIFF were created with no regard for legal levels)? Bringing them in as 601 means that the graphics will look EXACTLY like they do in Photoshop. Bringing them in as RGB makes all the blacks look grey.
10. How should I export the timeline out of Avid for import into Compressor? Compressor crashes when I try and bring in Avid DV Codec files and Reference Quicktimes so that seems like a dead end. Exporting as "Send to QT Movie", then using Custom Settings (Video and Audio, ProRes HQ, Fit to size, Even, Native Dimensions) seems to work fine. But should I use 601 or RGB?

11. If I export using RGB then fillers look great (black is black!), TIFFs look great (black is black!) but the footage looks too dark compared to the source. If I export using 601 then filler looks grey (Photoshop tells me that R=16, G=16 and B=16), TIFFs look great (black is black - Photoshop tells me that R=0, G=0 and B=0), and the footage looks the same as source. As I'm fading in and out the TIFFs the change from the TIFFs black to the fillers black (which is more grey) is obviously a big jump, which doesn't look great.
12. If I export as a "Same as Source" Avid DV Codec file then I get a nasty black bar at the bottom of the exported Quicktime movie (which is out of title safe on a TV, but still obviously visible if the viewer watches it on a computer - which is becoming the norm). This bar doesn't exist if I export as ProRes or "Same as Source" Apple DV.

So... as you can see, I'm slightly confused about the whole process. Basically all I want to do is duplicate what's visible on the Avid timeline and put that on a DVD using Compressor and DVD Studio Pro. How do I do this? The DVD will be viewed on both TVs and Computers/Laptops.

Apologies for the long post, but thank you so much for taking the time to read it! I'm sure I'm obviously just "missing the point", but despite reading up on lots of different articles, I'm still unclear of what's the best workflow to use. Any help you can provide me would be greatly appreciated!

I look extremely forward to your reply!

Best Regards, Chris!

Chris Hocking:

7. Should I import my H.264 footage in as 601 or RGB? I'm presuming 601. Correct?
8. Should I capture my DVCAM footage as 601 or RGB? I'm presuming 601. Correct?
9. Should I import my TIFFs are 601 or RGB

If you capture from tape, it can only be 601, correct?

Bring in tiffs at RGB

H264 could go either way. Import at 601 and look at it on a scope. if blacks are below legal, reimport at RGB

I have not found a good workflow to send Avid Quicktimes to Compressor. I believe (someone correct me if I am wrong) that Compressor is looking for RGB insted of YUV video levels.

I use Sorenson instead of Compressor to make mpegs and AC3 files. The files I make import into DVDsp with no problems.

Here is my workflow:

Export a QT Ref at 601 levels

Bring the QT file into Squeeze

another way to slice the mpeg cheese is BitVice, which in the latest iteration is Very Zippy. It makes beautiful images. (I do use Compressor for the audio, usually...)

Chris-

I didn't read your complete post, but I'm using the same work flow.

The best resolution I believe is to use QT reference out of Avid MC into DVD pro. Increase

the resolution in DVD Pro to the highest possible. I use this work flow all the time with no problems.

Skip using compressor--you don't need it with Avid.

Hope that Helps.

PS Just export as QT reference, don't use the Avid Codec ( I think)

Bill

Thank you to everyone who replied! I really appreciate it! 

Although all your suggestions are valid workarounds that no doubt work great - I still really want to find a good Avid to Compressor workflow.

I've been doing a lot of experimenting since my last post - so I'll keep playing away, and if I come up with anything that looks like it has potential, I'll let you know...

In the meantime, if anyone else has a different workflow they're using, please let me know!

Thanks again for your time, and have fun working with your Avid's!

Best Regards, Chris!

don't do these much, but just finished a 2hr17min multicamera theatrical production. I was NOT looking forward to scrunching this for DVD distribution.  I didn't do too much to the timeline, effect-wise, so I rendered everything and exported a QT Reference file.  Ended up being 788mb. Dropped the QT file onto BitVice, set my preferences, and left it on to cook.  The source files are on my CalDigit RAID.  I anticipated a LONG BitVice session.  It was done in under 3 hrs.  Couldn't believe it.  And no discernable compression artifacting (except in the ugly completely red wash lighting scene) Ended up with a 3.9 gig m2v file. 

I imported the .aif file into Compressor to create aC3 audio file. Dropped the audio file size from over a gig to just over 100 mb.  Threw that on there, and I'm golden. Took 'em both into DVDSpro. The DVD tracks, menu, etc., complete, it took about 2 min. to mux and be ready for preview. I open in DVD Player to ensure functionality, audio sync etc.  Really pretty, and sounds nice.

Last year this job would have taken forever.

Gotta second the Bitvice approach.  It really is a superior method over Compressor in all regards.  Faster, looks better and is more reliable in large batches.  I too use Compressor for ac3's, but that's it.

...add me to the Bitvice crowd. Compressor has too many visual flaws for my taste (and Sorenson always seems a little unstable, freezes/crashes - but then I haven't really looked into why that happens on my system).

BitVice is extremely fast and renders good images.

sort of the same boat but with BitVice and Sorenson as well. I really should look into why Im having probs with both after Avid export. Now I just export QT None and transfer everything over to a Motin Design box (macIntel) to do DVD SP work.
Avid folks here told me that I can fix my BitVice probs by updating. Only problem is that I dont think BitVice does BD formats or am I wrong? We use a lot of BD burning here. At the moment Im jumping from Encore to Toast and sometimes MainConcept.

Chris,

What version of Compressor are you using?

I have done some fairly extensive testing (with an oscilloscope and vectorscope....)....  It seems impossible to get certain footage with certain codecs to go through transparently through Compressor (or be imported correctly into FCP).  A good test to do is the following: Import a testcard such as the one here: 

http://www.belle-nuit.com/testchart.html

into Avid with 601 levels.

Export with your chosen codec then import the QT file into FCP.  Observe the results in FCP's waveform monitor, noting in particular the gray scale ramp which should be linear and have no curve.  The patches marked 16 and 235 should be correctly positioned in the waveform.

DV footage with the Avid codec consistently has gamma issues (even though with RGB levels the black and 235 white levels are correct).

DV footage without the Avid codec works as from FCP 6.0 but had problems in 5.1.4 as Avid does not insert the image description extensions that describe the colorimetry (primaries, transfer fn and matrix).  FCP 6.0 (and the version of compressor that comes with it) appears to deduce the correct primaries, xfer fn and matrix from the image size and codec (at least in the case of DV pal) if the 'nclc' QT extension is absent (which it always is from avid).

I have had little luck with the other codecs (prores, and native avid codecs) which are not transparent with a Avid->Compressor (or FCP) workflow.  I think something is up with how Avid presents the image samples to the quicktime compression session.  I suspect that given the absence of the 'nclc' extension which describes the colorimetry in the output QT file, Media Composer gives the codec no information as to the colorimetry of the samples, so the codec makes a best guess.  Of course with the Avid codecs this works (the problem is with decode on FCP and not in the encoding), but with third-party codecs such as Apple ProRes there is a problem.  As a result gamma correction is incorrectly applied to the source samples when it should not be.  It would be nice if this would be addressed for greater compatibility with other software.....

Hope this helps

Janusz

Thanks for your detailed reply Janusz! I really appreciate it!

I'm running Compressor 3.0.5.

I'll do some further testing over the next couple of weeks and keep you all posted.

I know this isn't exactly what this thread is about but as you talked about best settings for import/export I was wondering is anyone has experienced this.

We mainly use FCP here ( I miss working with Avids on a daily basis ) and we get a large amount of HQ QuickTimes exported from Avids. When we import them regardless of the settings the chroma values & blacks and whites are all incorrect. The blacks are slightly sat up and the whites are over even if you were to correct the blacks.

We colour correct everything and you can imagine what the rendering time is on a 1080i sequence. I know this is probably the FCP not liking the DNxHD codec but nobody has confirmed this.

Apple people blame Avid and the support guys blame Apple. I posted about this ages and didn't get a reply but if anybody has had this before and can tell me the remedy I'd be very grateful indeed.

Blue Crow, its simon well well well fisher price pro is it? how days have changed. re: your post, you've probably done this but hows about converting your file using "mpeg streamclip" to prores 422 hq (1920x1080i), its pretty much loss less and works natively in fcp after a "easy set up / prores 422 hq 1920x1080i" renders out smoothly and quickly, you can make adjustments then export as a qt mov/or reference or via compressor, compressor definately to ensure integrity is kept. you can then import to dvd sp and encode your dvd. in dvd sp/ prefernces, check background encoding to make process faster. hope this helps, i too spend my day's with fisher price pro, how i miss those all nighters and corrupt omfi media files. take care.

Hi Chris:  Sorry I don't have a reply to your issue, but I have a question that you might be able to answer since you use both FCP and Avid.

I'm on a HD 23.976 project and b-roll was shot 24p on a Canon HV40.  It was digitized into FCP and now I need it to import it to AVID.  

Do you have a favorite high resolution quicktime setting that works for both platforms?

Thanks!

Even after doing lots of tests (see Avid Experiments), I still don't have a workflow that works 100% all of the time, with every format. Before I do a new job, I always test the whole workflow and see if any bugs crop up.

Personally, I'd try just dragging in a small clip as both 709 and RGB and see which one is "correct". Generally speaking, most Quicktimes that come out of FCP need to use the RGB settings to bring it back into Avid - however, this is not always the case. Now with Snow Leopard out on the loose, I have no idea what that means for Avid users trying to bring in FCP footage.

Also, I'm in PAL land - so I'm probably not the best person to talk to in regards to import settings in terms of frame rates.

Good luck, and keep us all posted on your chosen workflow!

Best Regards, Chris !