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  • Sun, Apr 12 2009 4:20 AM

    • Marianna
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    From MC to Avid DVD - A look at the settings!

    In recent months the interest in using AvidDVD to author and produce both DVDs and Blu-Rays has grown quickly.
    Unfortunately the jungle of advice being thrown at newcomers seem to have confused them more than helped them.

    I did a test of 8 different settings and present my own conclusions in this tutorial.

    My test was done using HDV 1080i source footage.
    It is probable, though not certain, that my conclusions may apply to some other formats as well.

    When working with HDV 1080i material it is not necessary to use a 3rd party encoder as a "middle-man" in the workflow.
    With other formats, a 3rd party encoder may be necessary.

    This tutorial can be used to to complement the information contained in my other 6 tutorials on "AMC and DVDitPro HD (AvidDVD)"

    Hope I help make a little clearing in the jungle for you!

    Regards,
    Douglas


    This tutorial can be viewed at "Full-screen" by clicking on the icon on the toolbar

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  • Mon, Apr 13 2009 3:40 PM In reply to

    • Hoh
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    Re: From MC to AvidDVD - A look at the settings!

    Great work again!  Thanks Douglas.

    You confirmed my thoughts on the SD side and saved me sometime on the HD BD side of things.

    Do you have any suggestions on how to handle the field order difference when going from HDV (odd/upper) to an SD DVD (even/lower dominant) ?  I get harsh lines on pans in the video, but I prefer the sharpness and detail to a soft deinterlaced picture.

    Just curious how you handle HDV to DVD field flipping.

     

    Always appreciate your opinion.

    Thanks,

    Darin

    (1): Media Composer 8.9.2 ∙ Windows 7 Pro ∙ HP Z840 Xeon E5-2620 v3 2.4GHz ∙ 32GB RAM HP Samsung DDR4 2133 ∙ NVIDIA Quadro K4200 385.69 ∙ Matrox Mojito... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Apr 13 2009 10:39 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: From MC to AvidDVD - A look at the settings!

    Hoh:

    Great work again!  Thanks Douglas.........................

    Do you have any suggestions on how to handle the field order difference when going from HDV (odd/upper) to an SD DVD (even/lower dominant) ? ................................Just curious how you handle HDV to DVD field flipping. 

    Always appreciate your opinion.

    Thanks,
    Darin

    Thank you for the kind words, Darin.

    Field Order?  I don't handle it!
    That is one of the main reasons for NOT going through a 3rd party encoder.

    I do exactly as I show in the video.
    I do not even think about field order!

    AvidDVD seems to handle everything correctly.

    I export the DNxHD 145 mixdown as QT reference files.
    Import them into AvidDVD.
    Author and then burn either DVD or Blu-Ray.
    No settings to worry about except the RGB rather than 601/709 setting for colour.

    However, remember that I can only say that this works for my HDV 1080i captured files.
    I have no experience of other formats!

    Good luck,

    Douglas

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  • Fri, May 8 2009 5:32 PM In reply to

    • cutette
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    Re: From MC to AvidDVD - A look at the settings!

    Is that PDF w/ all the relevant settings posted up anyhwere on here.  I love your tutorials BTW.

     

     

    Avid MC 3.0.5 Mojo HP xw8400 [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, May 8 2009 10:21 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: From MC to AvidDVD - A look at the settings!

    cutette:
    Is that PDF w/ all the relevant settings posted up anyhwere on here.  I love your tutorials BTW. 

    Sorry, Vanessa, my good intentions have not been carried out yet!
    The PDF is one of those things which seems to get pushed aside for other things at the moment.

    Regards,
    Douglas

    PS. Welcome to the MC Forum!

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  • Fri, Jun 12 2009 8:17 PM In reply to

    • DIESELE
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    Re: From MC to AvidDVD - A look at the settings!

    Useful stuff D.  Thanks.

    That old chestnut of DV field order contiunes to cause me problems.

    When I QTR export an Avid DVC Pro timeline and then use Sorrenson to encode an H264 MP4 movie I see interlacing zig zag artifacts everywhere.  This despite the fact that MP4 is deemed native progressive as far as I can make out  - so it SHOULD de-interlace the DVC Pro.

    Who to blame?  If I were more cynical I would blame the manufacturers who take my money but lumber me with unsolved problems!   Potentially handing over more money to Sorenson may sort this - but I do not know that for a fact - it will be lost in the wool!

    Apologies for digression!

    D

    Symphony 2018.11, Blackmagic Intensity Pro (cant get it working well in 4k though for client monitor - which was the point...), WIN 10 on 2000Mbps M.2 SSD, Nvidia Quadro K2000, Asus X99 Mobo, 4.0 GHz Hex core CPU, 32Gb 2800 Mhz RAM, WD Black 8Tb RAID10

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  • Fri, Sep 11 2009 6:32 AM In reply to

    • hartfilms
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    Re: From MC to AvidDVD - A look at the settings!

    Hi Doug,

    Thanks, again, Doug. A few questions:

    1. Wouldn't the color have something to do with the display? RGB might look better on a computer screen, but 601/709 would look better as video signal from a DVD player to a TV screen?

    2. Do you have any tips for saving an image without a menu, but one that does not "autoplay" when it is burned to DVD-R?

    3. Does the SD image have to have a 4x3 aspect ratio on the DVD or can that be adjusted to 16x9? I really don't like letterboxing and most of my clients are still using SD DVD not Blu-Ray.

    HP Z440 - Win 7 Pro / MC 8.6.5; Mac Pro (Early 2008) OS 10.6.8 / FCS 3; ASUS VH222H 21.5" x2 1080P LCD Monitors; Mojo SD (not connected for HD/HDV... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Sep 11 2009 6:54 AM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: From MC to AvidDVD - A look at the settings!

    hartfilms:
    Thanks, again, Doug. A few questions:

    1. Wouldn't the color have something to do with the display? RGB might look better on a computer screen, but 601/709 would look better as video signal from a DVD player to a TV screen?

    It is possible. Maybe someone who knows more about that than I (that would be almost everyone!) can add their thoughts on the topic.
    I am a person who isn't deep into screen calibration.... so it is quite possible you are right.
    In my tests I was judging the final result on a FullHD Sony Bravia.
    It is quite possible that the same tests viewed on an analogue TV might be different.

    hartfilms:
    2. Do you have any tips for saving an image without a menu, but one that does not "autoplay" when it is burned to DVD-R?

    Never even considered that one, Jayasri.
    Next time I've AvidDVD open I'll see if it can be done.

    hartfilms:
    3. Does the SD image have to have a 4x3 aspect ratio on the DVD or can that be adjusted to 16x9? I really don't like letterboxing and most of my clients are still using SD DVD not Blu-Ray.

    To view a full 4x3 SD image on a 16:9 screen you will have to accept black bars at the sides.

    Today's newer TVs almost always have settings for displaying different aspect ratios.
    Most home users have it set to "Auto".
    So a 4:3 DVD will be automatically stretched to fit the screen.
    If the viewer is at home with the TV controls and settings they should be able to switch to the correct screen aspect to show the 4:3 as 4:3 on a 16:9 screen.
    This combination of DVD aspect ratio/ DVD player aspect ratio and TV screen aspect ratio lead to a huge variation is possibilities.
    Most often when the viewer complains about the wrong aspect ratio on the TV they will assume that the fault lies in the DVD authoring.
    This is almost always NOT the case.

    So two things to do:

    1. Test for yourself  and;
    2. Hope that one of the many who know more about this than I can jump in here and help you out.

    Regards,
    Douglas

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  • Fri, Apr 30 2010 6:03 AM In reply to

    • afnamvet
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    Re: From MC to Avid DVD - A look at the settings!

    Hello !

    Thank you so much for the insight and explaining how to use Avid DVD. After reviewing your tutorial, this makes sense and will help me expedite with getting my rough cut ready for screening. I do have a question about the movie/ video clips that I've rendered effects to.

    When I go to look for those video clips that are located in the "name" bins I can't seem to find them on the source drive. Perhaps I may have to look on the local : drive.

    I've only been using the program for about a year and am self taught. So unfortunately at times, it takes longer to figure out how to use the tools effectively.

    Thanks again,

    Mark

  • Sat, Jun 5 2010 10:30 PM In reply to

    • markle77074
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    Re: From MC to Avid DVD - A look at the settings!

    Dear Douglas,

    I am importing media from a qt reference file to DVDit Pro HD version 6.4

    The media comes in and shows a white screen.

     

     

    Is this a Quicktime version problem or windows Media problem?

     

    Sincerely
    Mark Pirtle

    I have several machines. My latest is a zbook with maxed out processor, memory and video card running windows 8. [view my complete system specs]
  • Sat, Jun 5 2010 10:40 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: From MC to Avid DVD - A look at the settings!

    Mark,

    A few thoughts that come into my head on this one:

    When you start DVDitProHD, do you get a question about using FFDShow or not? If you are asked, choose "Do not use it this time". FFDShow can cause many troubles with DVDitProHD. Video coming in upside down is one of them that I have experienced. I have a tutorial somewhere in the collection on that problem.

    Are you sure that the QT reference was done correctly? Sometimes, when in a hurry, I forget to activate the tracks I want to be included and end up with a blank QT export.

    QT versions can be the problem, although I have never seen any here.

    Sorry I am being so brief, but  I am on my way out for the day.

    Good luck.

    Douglas

     

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  • Mon, Jul 19 2010 5:50 AM In reply to

    Re: From MC to Avid DVD - A look at the settings!

    Doug,

    I have no doubt that your observations are accurate, but I'm trying to reconcile them w/ what I've been led to believe about 601/709 vs RGB color levels, which is as follows:

    1) For Importing, 601/709 does not rescale the color levels of the image.

    2) For Importing, RGB does rescale the color levels of the image. 0 to 255 are squeezed into 16 to 235.

    3) For Exporting, 601/709 does not rescale the color levels of the image.

    4) For Exporting, RGB does rescale the color levels of the image. 16 to 235 are expanded to 0 to 255. As a consequence, 0 to 15 and 236 to 255 are truncated from the image.

    So the rule of thumb is to always use 601/709 for importing AND exporting if you don't want any color level rescaling done.

    I am confident that the Importing information is correct. I now have some doubt about the exporting rescaling observations I made above, but I think they are also accurate. When exporting, 601/709 does not rescale colors but RGB both rescales and truncates (the superwhite and superblack values).

    But this is made more confusing b/c QT Reference does not actually encoding anything, it's just a pointer to a media file. So I had thought 601/709 vs RGB no impact w/ QT Reference files, but that's clearly not the case.

    So is the QT Reference pointer also telling what color mapping to use? And is this honored by the application playing the QT Reference file and implemented on the fly? *I'm really scratching my head now* I just don't know the answer, but 601/709 vs RGB QT Reference files are clearly different, like you've pointed out.

    The next layer of confusion for me comes from AvidDVD itself. It may have its own settings similar to 601/709 vs RGB for source material importing and exporting/burning.

    The final layer of confusion is QT in general. QT can alter playback color levels all by itself, as has been noted in many other threads.

     

    P.S. I have run more tests of QT Reference exporting, and it seems that 601/709 causes no remapping. I believe I've confirmed this by reimporting the footage into both MC and Sony Vegas. Looking at the actual image and waveform monitor, it seems that exporting 601/709 color levels w/ QT Reference does not rescale color levels. But QT Reference w/ RGB color levels both rescales and truncates.

    I would love for anyone to chime in!

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Mon, Jul 19 2010 12:19 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: From MC to Avid DVD - A look at the settings!

    BobbyMurcerFan:

    I have no doubt that your observations are accurate, but I'm trying to reconcile them w/ what I've been led to believe about 601/709 vs RGB color levels, which is as follows:

    Well I have no knowledge about colour levels etc.
    I just know what my eyes, and the eyes of my family saw.
    They all agreed that things looked as theywere reported above.

    But I think that with all the variables that are involved in these processes, it is not so strange that there may be different results.

    As I always point out. I either go straight to AvidDVD/DVDitProHD via a QT-reference
    or I use Sonic Cinevision to make a compliant video stream for AvidDVD/DVDitProHD, this is encoded from a similar QT-reference file.

    So for my part I am unable to give any technical explanation of what I am seeing with my own eyes and the workflow I use.

    Regards,
    Douglas

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  • Tue, Jul 20 2010 9:39 AM In reply to

    Re: From MC to Avid DVD - A look at the settings!

    Doug,

    I have no doubt that that looks best :) ;). But I do think a color level shift is occurring during the QT Ref Export stage when RGB is chosen.

    Now that shift can look very appealing, so I'm not saying its necessarily a bad thing. But it's good to know if a color shift is occurring. What you could do is open the QT Refs and compare them to the image in the Composer Window. Which looks closest to what you see in MC, the 601/709 or the RGB file?

    But THANK YOU AGAIN for all your tutorials. They are extremely helpful to ME! :)

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Tue, Jul 20 2010 12:40 PM In reply to

    Re: From MC to Avid DVD - A look at the settings!

    Hi BobbyMurcerFan,

     

    it´s comforting to find other people also struggling with the color space issue. I´m working on it for such a long time.... and there are so many controversial opinions out there...

     

    ok, here I´m writing about my experience, tests, conversations with professionals etc:

     

    First of all, I would confirm the four facts BobbyMurcerFan postulated in his thread about importing and exporting either in RGB or 601/709 color space. This is exactly my experience with the different settings in Avid. Source material imported with the RGB setting is squeezed together, no matter what color space really was used in the source, so you have to be careful when importing 601/709 material. Then you should manually choose the 601/709 import setting. Otherwise the black values are lifted up to 32 and turns into grey, same thing for the higlights which are pressed down in regions about 215 (values taken from the waveform screen in the color correction window).

     

    So going on with the export options:

    The 601/709 option preserves the 16 to 235 color space but when this QT Ref is played back in the Quicktime player, the colours look washed out (black is grey, bright white becomes a greyish look), compared to the composer window in the Avid media composer. When exported as RGB, the resulting image in the quicktime player is more like the one in the composer window. When I open the QT Ref or for example, a Blu-Ray compliant mpeg4 file created with the adobe media encoder from Adobe CS4 in adome premiere and display the waveform, then I can see that the values in the 601/709 exported file vary between the borders 16 and 235  and the RGB exported file uses the complete range from 0 to 255. So I would definitely confirm that there is a color shift made when you use the RGB export option. As you say, values from 0 to 15 and from 236 to 255 would be cut away during this stretching process. But when editing inside Avid, few information is stored in this regions. Ok, when you apply a heavy color effect which brings colors into these "illegal" regions, then these informations would be cut of. But normal information (we work with panasonic p2 dvcproHD material from an hpx500) isn´t often inside this area. So I wouldn´t bother about it.

     

    Ok,let´s go on with the Blu-Ray Creation:

    My source file is a QT Ref, exported with 601/709 color space.

    As mentioned, I use the adobe media encoder from CS4 for the creation of my m4v-Files for the authoring. These files are imported into adobe encore, I build a Iso and burn it with nero. The workflow itself works fine and I didn´t have any playback issues by now. But there again is the color space problem:

    I,ve got a Sony BDP-S550 Blu-Ray Standalone player which is connected to a Sanyo PLV-Z5 LCD projector with HDMI. The plv-z5 has a native resolution of 1280x720 pixel and this is also the resolution of my film. When I leave the blu-ray player in its automatic settings, then I get a picture with the greyish look. The black seems to be shifted up. In the settings of the player, I can configure the HDMI Output concerning the color space. The automatic setting creates the greyish look. Both y:Cb.Cr (4:2:2 and 4:4:4) create the greyish look and there are also two RGB settings. One displays 16-235 and one 0-255. And at last, when I use the HDMI option 0-255, then I get a picture displayed which corresponds to the look I created in avid. I have to say again, for the QT REF exort I used the 601/709 setting. I did so because I spoke to a postpro god and he told me, that for broadcast purpose, DVD and blu-ray creation you should use the ITU 601/709 setting. The RGB setting should be used for material which is shown on computer devices, web-video etc. But here is the problem: when the standard player settings create a picture with the greyish look based on 709 material, how can it be then that 709 is the standard for broadcast, Blu-ray etc? We had a screening in a cinema, no dcp servers etc. and so we used a Blu-ray with 709 material on the cinema´s Blu-ray player and we also had the greyish look.

     

    One can say now, ok, create a Blu-ray with RGB source and be happy, but I´m someone who wants standards for reasons that they work, otherwise the institutes can take their standards and go home. I´m a little bit confused at all..... How can you create a disc which is shown the way it is meant to be? When there is someone who configures his BD-player the way I did with the RGB 0-255 output and he inserts a RGB based disc, then everything is to dark and the colours are to heavy.

     

    Ok, that are the things I know about it at the moment.

     

    Of course, the results are  somehow based on the software used and the color interpretation of AvidDVD could be different.

     

    Greetings

     

    Felix

     

     

     

     

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