System: HP8200xw 2GB  MCAdrenaline 2.7.5   Four-way striped SCSI Avid LVD 320 drives

Encoding software: Sorenson Squeeze 5.0    Authoring & Burn software: AvidDVDit by Sonic

Project:  Film NTSC 23.976

Request: Advice on proper settings for workflow

Problem:  When I playback my authored DVD on an SD consumer monitor from consumer DVD progressive Sony player, I get a noticeable stutter (or described as 'stepping" - it does not appear smooth, but as if 24 frames rather than playback on monitor with smooth 29.97 fps pulldown re-introduced for viewing as with 'store-bought' DVD's).  Can't figure out if this is based upon my settings for quicktime Export from Avid, or in the Sorenson Squeeze settings, or in the Avid DVDit burn settings. 

Troubleshooting thus far:  Consulted 'white paper' on 24p and Avid site, regarding using Avid export to Sorenson Squeeze, but this was written a couple of years ago, prior to Avid and Sorenson program upgrades.  Thus menu options and settings preferences are not as listed in the article.

Have attempted different settings and workflow options but have not solved the problem. 

ie. Have followed advice on attempt first with Sorenson Filter settings at NO DeInterlace, and then again a trial with settings at 2:3 pulldown, but neither changes the result.

Note:  Original material was 24 fps motion picture film, telecine with 2:3 pulldown to DBeta, then captured 23.976p into Avid with success and accuracy.  Playback output from Avid to client monitor and crash records to VHS to re-introduce pulldown is perfect and looks smooth, it has been problem with output via software that is proving to be difficult.

If this info is already in Avid knowledge base, please direct me, and my apologies for going over old territory.  ***Is this the identical subject issue as the current thread "QuickTimes for Composer" and 'stepping' artifacts?

Thanks,

Joe

So that I understand:  (I just reviewed the thread for "Quicktimes for Composer").

Just attempted again a New QuickTime Export and by subsequent playback of newly authored DVD (via Sorenson and AvidDVDit, I note from the NSTC playback that the 4:1 frames have been inserted because of the QuickTime export from Avid, rather than true 2:3 pulldown.

Thus the 'stepping'.   Don't get me wrong, I like Avid for a lot of reasons, but this 'export' flaw strikes me as a major drawback.  How come this can't have a workaround after all these years?  Am I missing something here?

Thus, do I understand correctly?  Avid Media Composer can NOT export from a 24p/23.976 Project via its software so that a DVD can be authored for smooth correct 2:3 insertion of pulldown with Sorenson or AvidDVD software. 

So the ONLY means of achieving a smooth 29.976 playback on NTSC monitors with a DVD, from source material in AVID of a 23.976 project, is to physically play out a Digital Cut to a Hardware component (ie. VTR or DVD Recorder)?

I can only afford consumer DVD recorders, but wish to place 70 menu chapters at specific points (not automatically as most DVD units only provide), and thus the 'authoring' via software had been my intention; but it appears that without function of 2:3 insertion correctly to 24p project Avid Quicktime exports, I have no choice but to go with Digital Cut playback and no accurate authoring (ie. Menu, frame accurate chapter headings, etc).

I am preparing to submit a work-in-progress feature-length documentary to programmers, and because of an extremely low budget, must do all this 'in-house', and must update my output frequently, so would like a simple but quality DVD, which shows smooth playback on NTSC and HD monitors.  Don't know what best solution is. 

Appreciate reply.  (I don't like to impose on Michael Phillips, but hope he might glance at this and respond.)

Best,

Joe

Joe Goldman:

Thus, do I understand correctly?  Avid Media Composer can NOT export from a 24p/23.976 Project via its software so that a DVD can be authored for smooth correct 2:3 insertion of pulldown with Sorenson or AvidDVD software. 

Avid can definitely export 24/23p correctly.

What settings did you use? I have exported standalone (same as source setting) and QT Ref files that I encoded for DVD - several have been used for playback via digital projection. Are you trying to do a frame rate conversion (24p ->30i) via QT export? Remember that Avid uses the QT engine and doing that may cause the incorrect pulldown pattern. You should let Sorenson do the correct conversion. Did  you also select a 'Progressive' encoding options?

Michael Phillips guide in general is still correct. Yes the menu has changed but the parameters should still apply.

Dom thanks,

I will check the guide and try this again.

-Joe

Dom, as far as I can tell, my export of QT reference movies, has been as 24p, and thus I'm unclear as to what actions I should do in Sorenson.  From what I read in the Guide, I thought that I should deselect Interlace (or select NONE at this option) and I've tried alternately Insert 2:3 telecine, and then deselect this, and I still get the 4:1 stepping result.

I know I'm doing something wrong, but maybe confused at where I must select options before my Avid Quicktime export. 

How do I assure my QT Reference export from Avid keeps its 24p setting, and does not try to convert to 30 frame?

Where in Sorenson do I confirm 'Progressive' encoding? (in Filter options or Project preferences menu?)

I greatly appreciate your help on this.

Joe Goldman:

How do I assure my QT Reference export from Avid keeps its 24p setting, and does not try to convert to 30 frame?

If you are doing a QT Ref file then there is no file conversion. You can double check it by opening the file in QT Player and pressing Control + I. This will bring the Info window which will indicate some basic parameters (frame rate, res, codec).

Joe Goldman:

Where in Sorenson do I confirm 'Progressive' encoding? (in Filter options or Project preferences menu?)

In version 4 (it should be also the same for 5 but I cannot confirm. I'm am not at the front of one right now), it is under Field Encoding. It is just under the frame rate.

Let me know....

Attached is a preset I made for Sorenson. Change the ,txt to .zip. Unzip the file and import into your MPEG2 presets. If you look in the settings, there is a parameter called "Field encoding" and progressive is one of the three options.

Michael

Thank you Michael, I just read this after the other thread, and will pursue as per your instructions. 

Will report back.

best,

Joe

Michael,

How do I import the settings you sent me? 

Thus far, via trial and error and process of elimination, have confirmed that my QT export is correct 24 frames represented, but in Sorenson, to encode for NTSC, best result appears to have been to select Filter 2:3 telecine, Bottom Line first.  (No deinterlace, No cropping). 

when Squeezed, the resultant m2v file imports to AvidDVDit, and burns a DVD which seems to play smoothly on consumer NTSC monitor, better than the 'stepping' perceived when I tried alternate encoding without Telecine filter, as a 24p progressive DVD.

Also, when I try to import or drag into Avid DVDit, my audio .m2a file (16bit 48k or 41k) created by Sorenson 5.0, Avid DVDit will not recognize the file, and thus I have alternately been exporting from Avid, the audio as a .wav file, and as long as it has been previously converted to 16bit, it is accepted by AvidDVDit and synchronous with picture.  (But shouldn't my new audio file created by Sorenson after the squeeze, be accepted by Avid DVDit?

(Also, the Quicktime Movie Info confirmed 23.976fps size 720x480 (however when I import this .mov file into Sorenson, the window shows 640x480. is this correct?)  *All source material is full-frame 4:3 NTSC DV25 media, which was exported Send from AVid as Quicktime, from Sequence of Mixed-down single Video track & single Audio track. (Standard Masking for 16x9, but no anamorphic applied, processed with Setresizetype 9 to attempt optimum image quality).

Apologies in advance if I've missed something obvious here.

Thanks for your help.

-Joe

I know this is an old thread but maybe it's time to revive it.  I have many projects shot on a EX-1 at 24p (23.976 in Avid).

How do I create a progressive DVD?  Seems the Michael Phillips PDF is out of date.

This is what I've done so far:

Transcode to DNxHD (to avoid the whole "long gop" issue).

Export a Quicktime reference file.

When I try any DVD setting with "progressive" set in Sorenson it fails.  No explanation.  Just says encoding failed.  This is with Sorenson 4.5 and 5.

Does anyone have up to date steps as to how to do this?  I've tried using the regular DVD presets and it has that awful 4:1 stutter.  Looks like crap.  There must be a better way.

Create a new MPEG2 setting - do not use an existing one. The do:

 Thanks Michael, but I tried that many many times.  I think I tried every possible setting but any time "progressive" is selected, it fails.

 Make sure you start a new template from scratch. Don't modify another one.

Michael

Hmm... I did, several times.  It must be something else I'm doing wrong.  I tried the TMPEGenc trial version and encoded the same file with it with good results so I think the quicktime reference file I'm working on is OK.  Sorenson's failure is still a mystery...

I was never able to get Sorenson to make a progressive mpeg file for DVD.  It always failed.  Maybe it's just my setup somehow.

I ended up getting TMPGEnc 4 and it works better in every way.  Perfect progressive files, no stutter, just excellent.

I've used it quite a bit now.  For anyone looking for a 24p solution, I'd recommend it.