Hi,

I have a project that was supposedly shot at 24p, but i had started a 30i project before knowing that while capturing other footage, and when told that the new footage was 24p, i continued capturing in the same project since i saw no obvious problems with the footage.. 

Firstly i had no idea that one could capture different frame rates in a single project/timeline so excuse my ignorance!

Basically when looking closely at the footage when it was being digitalizing, i did notice that when there was fast camera movements, the image seemed to move quite faster than "normal".. I double-checked the time code and all was non-drop and there seemed to be 29 frames, not 24.. But during playback on the deck (M25U), there was a +- 1 symbol...

What i am doing wrong here?

Is this real 24p? It was shot on a P2..

Did you shoot tape or P2 media? If you shot P2, how does the M25U figure in?

It was shot on a P2 but as SD, so on tape.

I just found this chart : https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2comp/HVX200_Avid_XPProHD_USB.html

It is basically saying that for 480i/24p, the project setting should be 30i NTSC.. Is that really so? It also says it is 2:3 pulldown footage, is that a good or bad thing? I'm pretty clueless as to what pulldown really truly is i guess..

What i'm looking at seems film-like enough to my eyes but maybe i'm not seeing it all right.. I just want to be sure i'm in the right project setting so as to avoid "reducing" that film-like quality that the guy who shot it in meant it to look it..

Also my final output is meant to be a DVD so i'm wondering whether changing the frame rates, etc, will affect the DVD..?

Any help would be appreciated as i'm starting to consider re-digitalizing all my footage and would love to avoid to if not necessary!

Thanx in advance

So panasonic DVCPRO shoots 24p to 60i with pulldown added. When you dig in a 24p project the deck removes this pulldown. You can also dig 24p footage in 60i leaving the pulldown in the footage. This will mean that you have duplicated fields. If you do a wikipedia search I think you'll find a more in depth explanation of pulldown. Duplicated fields won't cause too much trouble except on some motion effects and on some camera panning. A lot of these problems can be fixed by messing with frame rates and format input/outputs on the motion effects editor.

If you're deliverig 60i then I'd leave things as they are. If you plan on outputting 24p then I'd redig'. I do believe that you need trilevel sync when working in 24p but someone else would have to advise you on that.

So you mean that's why i'm seeing faster motion when the camera pans, right? Otherwise when one speaks infront of the camera without any panning, there shouldn't be any difference - everything should roll normally and there shouldn't be any noticeable difference in their speech with the speed? That's of course what i'm mainly concerned about...

I wasn't told whether the output should be 24p or 60i, they just said they wanted a DVD and i was too consumed with this problem that i forgot to ask - but i'm guessing since they shot it at 24p, they want that "film-look", so if i stay in 60i, will i lose that affect?

When i was trying to digitalize in a 24p project in Avid, it was telling me that it couldn't capture both the audio and video together because the frame rates weren't the same.. I have never seen that before. Therefore i just figured i'd stay in 60i.. Plus the pulldown option was saying it was forbidden. Is there something specific i should be doing to be able to dig in a 24p project?

(Thanx for your explanations of duplicated fields by the way, it really helps! I'll look it up on wikipedia for more info on what all that means..)

Could anyone confirm these 3 little things for me please:

1- If keeping 24p footage in a 30i project, will i lose the film-look properties once i output to DVD?

2- Is my footage now interlaced?

3- What is the proper method for digitalizing 24p footage in Avid then? If my audio and video are at different frame rates? (A link to an older post would really help too)

Thanx again.

OK, TV 101 time.

First point:  PAL, NTSC, or SECAM video is always interlaced.  Absolutely definitely no argument always.  If it were not it wouldn't be PAL, NTSC, or SECAM - it's written into the standards.  So yes, your footage is now interlaced.  It always was.

Second point:  24 frame film footage is transferred to 30 frame NTSC by varying the field on which pulldown takes place.  So field 1 and 2 may correspond to frame 1 of the original film, fields 3, 4 and 5 may be frame 2, 6, 7 and 8 frame 3, 9 and 10 frame 4 and so on.  Note that this is one possible scheme only.  The goal is the same whatever scheme is used, to make 24 frames fill 30.  For convenience the example shown is called "2:3:3:2", "24pA" or most commonly "advanced pulldown".

Third point:  Editing so-called 24p SD in an interlaced project will not change your original footage in any way.  What it will do is ignore where the frame pulldown takes place, which can result in interlace problems when you export.  It will also affect the way that Avid handles transitions and effects.

In summary, if it's not too late, create a 24p project and use that.  It should make life easier for you down the track.  It will also give you the option of producing a true 24 frame DVD at the end.

But Red Ochre gave you the best advice.  Search for a wiki on the topic.  I'm very rusty with NTSC, and while I believe that my information is accurate you should check on pulldown formats used, especially on the pulldown that Panasonic apply to their 24p over 60i format.

sned:

Is there any way i can de-interlace my footage if i decide to stay in 60i by adding a FluidFilm Progressive filter or will that not help at all?

Firstly, the example I chose to use in my previous post was 24pA.  If your footage was shot 24p, the only difference is that the sequence now becomes 2:3:2:3.  The benefits and disadvantages of either are probably better argued elsewhere.  I've seen multi-page arguments on other fora about just this issue.

If you stay in 60i should you deinterlace?  Well, I wouldn't, but it's largely a matter of personal preference.  The end result will still be interlaced even if you do so.  Fluid Film may correct any pulldown sequence errors that arise from not working in a 24 frame aware format, but since I work in PAL I can't answer that.

I can tell you that we shoot 24p on every show and dig' to a 60i project. The end product looks great and is always accepted for air. It still looks very "filmic". Like I said, when panning you can get a jutter where the difference between fields is more pronounced and MFX can look bad if they're slowed down too much. Since you know this you'll be keeping a look out.

I'm pretty sure 24pA is for a film out. This is not my area of expertise but since your footage wasn't shot that way I don't think it matters.

There is a user on this forum by the name of Job Ter Berg, I think. He works in film and has given me some good advice on occasion. Maybe you could search and ask him specifically.

When parked on a MFX open the MFX editor or go into effect mode. To alter the input/output setting you must promote if that option is available. If its not then your OK. Click the Formats button. I Usually try various settings for the input option (you can try film with 2:3 pulldown and have avid guess the cadence). Setting output to progressive seems to be the biggest help. Also, The more a clip is slowed down the more the problem occurs. Some suggest that a MFX that is a divisible of your framerate yields better result. i.e. -15fps for 60i or 30p. I'm not sure how that carries through on 24p played out with pulldown (is it a divisable of 60 or 24?). I haven't always found it to help.

When choosing the type of MFX I start with blended interpolated. If that doesn't work I try FluidMotion. FluidMotion works great as long as there isn't a lot of objects passing in front of one another. You can edit the artifacts that fluid motion creates but its pretty complicated and I haven't yet got the hang of it. The help files on this subject are poorly written.

Usually this problem crops up because the offline editor doesn't have enough footage to cover a scene and needs to slooooow things down.

I've never seen a problem with transitions or graphics (that we're 30fps).

I'd suggest you try this all out before you continue with your project. Just grab some footage with movement in it. Slow it down 10% and try the above suggestions out. Put the footage though the ringer and decide at that point if you're comfortable with continuing.