I have an opportunity to edit some short documentary subjects that will take a few months. It genuinely interests me and gives me a great deal of creative control. There's also a few indie films I'm close to getting work on. I could, however, become a PA, work I've done before and loathe with all my heart, on a major Hollywood movie that could possibly see me getting into the post-production dept., which would put me well on the way to joining the union and getting a crack at big time Hollywood productions some ways down the road. (I'm a little over a year out of college, so it's time for me to make these "pathway" decisions) My question is not which route I should take--I know I should do what I love--but is the only legitimate way of ever getting a chance at big time films through joining the union? And if so, which I think it is, must I work my way from the bottom to the top? Can a non-union editor become a force to be reckoned with on independent features and one day end up doing the big time, and thus circumvent the system? I understand paying your dues, but if an editor is good enough, can they get that break without having done apprentice work? I am pretty ignorant on these matters and naive because I think immense talent will always speak for itself and gain the recognition it deserves--and I'm probably dead wrong. Share some real life experiences, whether you are union or non-union, and give me any advice you can based on those. Thanks so much.

'I think immense talent will always speak for itself '

How do you know you have immense talent?

You make the assumption that I'm speaking for myself.  Granted, it's written in such a way as to lead you there, but I never explicilty said that I am in fact immensely talented.  The statement should be taken more generally.

With deepest humility, have you anything to say in regards to my question?

no one can be really you, i tell you

follow your intinct, after all, "all the roads will lead you to Rome"

and as Sir Winston Churchill said:

Here's reality. If someone wants you to edit their union gig, and you aren't in the union, they will get you in.

That's how it works. Build up your credits anyway you can. Not to mention that one or more of the people working on those other projects you mentioned may go on to a bigger film some day and remember you.

It is a 'people' industry so you have got to get to know the right people.

paetzold:

must I work my way from the bottom to the top? Can a non-union editor become a force to be reckoned with on independent features and one day end up doing the big time, and thus circumvent the system?

Even Steven Spielberg, as immensely talented as he has been since his earliest days in the business, had to work his way up the chain, and face some pretty stiff snubs and resentment from the mainstream Hollywood community along the way, which was none too thrilled with his "Wunderkid" mark on the box office at an extremely young age. Ergo, the years of time and effort he had to expend before winning his first Oscar - for Schindler's List, some 25 years after he started.

No matter how talented you may be, you will still have to "pay your dues" to get respected.

Well said all and very true.

Thanks for the guidance

About a decade ago I came out of the Army with just enough cash saved up to buy a non-linear editing system. At the time it was an Amiga based system, because there was absolutely no way I could afford an Avid.

Anyway, I started out cutting actor demo reels. Then I got a few short films. Then a friend of a friend shot a feature, so I upgraded my system to Speed Razor on a PC. The feature lead to another, then another, then another. However, they were all very low budget and not very well paying.

Some years later I managed to get an Avid, then I 'lucked out' by cutting low budget features for directors who went on to do Union features. I'm now cutting these smaller union features. DVD releases for the studios, mostly. Doors are slowly opening; it took a decade.

Also along the way I met an editor who got me a gig as his assistant on a couple TV shows. That's how I actually got into the union in the first place. So I assisted him for a few seasons, while cutting independent films at night and on the weekends.

There's definitely no one way to make a career in this business. You do need to be talented. You need a tremendous amount of perseverence, and you need a good bit of luck. Your personality will help too. As has been said, you need to meet the right people.

Also,for what it's worth, I'd been out of school for nearly 5 years before I got my first cutting gig. Although it feels like you have to make 'choices' now, you have lots of time to get it right. I'd recommend getting all the credits you can get, any way you can get them. Nothing says you can't cut nights and weekends while schlepping on another job, either. Just do what you have to do.

Good luck.

Chris

From your description, I'm not sure you're too clear on the process of joining the union.  You mention Hollywood films, so I assume you're west coast based.  I think the process is similar for the east coast union, but I can't speak to it because I've never dealt with them.  Basically, there are four ways to get into the Editors Guild:

1) Work 100 days within two years as a non-union assistant.

2) Work 175 days within three years as a non-union editor.

3) Join as an apprentice, if you can find a company willing to hire you as one.

4) Taft-Hartley.  When a non-union show that you're on becomes union, by law the union has to give you the right to join.

Realistically, don't count on 3.  I did it, but I'm the only one I know of who did, and that was only because I was very lucky and the circumstances were perfectly aligned in my favor.  4 can happen, but it's usually in television that it does and it sounds like you're mainly into features.  And being a P.A. doesn't really help you much in terms of joining the union, because you're put in the position where you can't earn non-union days as an assistant because you're on a union show (although it will help you make those all important connections).  Most people go with 1 or 2.  So you see, if you work long enough as a non-union editor, and you get a union gig, having to join the union won't really be an impediment to you.  However, in the meantime you may have some trouble finding work, because a lot of jobs that you'd otherwise be qualified for won't hire you because you're not in the union.

Here's the reality of the situation, as I see it: Being in the union will unlock certain doors for you, but it is still up to you to open them.  I was fortunate enough to get into the Editors Guild almost immediately after school.  I managed to get a job as a post production assistant on an indie feature, and convinced them to hire me as an apprentice.  Normally you would have to work a certain number of non-union days to be allowed to join as either an assistant or an editor, but by being hired as an apprentice I was able to join on my first job.  Since then, I've assisted on several films, and have even gotten an editor credit on one film.  Not all of those jobs were union jobs--most weren't, in fact--but every single one of them was directly because of that first job I got.  Either someone wanted to hire me again, or somebody who couldn't take a job for some reason recommended me for it.  However, some of those jobs I simply would not have been able to take if I weren't in the union.  Every job you do has the potential to lead to other jobs, and missing out on a great opportunity to make connections because you didn't bother trying to meet the (completely arbitrary) criteria to join the union would be a shame, I think.

As for the question of whether you can become a feature editor without "paying your dues", as you put it... Well, I'm going to get on my soapbox here.  I don't think this is a good attitude to take.  The editor, especially on features, is not just the person operating the Avid.  He or she is the head of the editorial department, and must know how post production works from start to finish.  Normally an editor is hired at the start of shooting and is held on through the mix or later--far longer than any other department head.  The days of cutting film were well before my time, but it used to be that no matter how talented you were as an editor, there was simply no way for you to get a job cutting without working as an apprentice or assistant first, simply because you had to learn how to cut film.  But along the way you would learn other things as well, from the technical aspects of how sound departments work to the political aspects of dealing with stressed out directors and producers who are on a tight deadline from the studio.  Every one of these things is crucial to the smooth running of post production.  I have been fortunate enough to be working as an assistant to some editors with a tremendous depth of knowledge accumulated from careers spanning decades.  I don't look at it as paying my dues.  To me, it's more like an extended education.

Like others have said, there is no set path.  However, the one thing I will tell you is that you may think you're making "pathway" decisions now, but that's really not the case.  If you manage to impress people enough in your job--any job, whether editor or lunch-picker-upper--you will find yourself presented with opportunities that you never would have imagined you'd get.  So to conclude, I'd say do whatever you really want to do, because it'll be better for you in the long run to be enjoy your job and have a good attitude than to do what you don't like doing because you think it'll advance your career.  Just remember that this is a cutthroat business, and if you don't want to be doing your job, there are dozens of people out there who would love to do it in your place--and one of them probably will be shortly.

This is very useful.  You'll have to excuse my ignorance on the subject.  Really I based most of what I said on the opinion of one woman who worked for the union who said my best bet was to get a PA job, try getting into the post dept., and go from there, but clearly this offers much more amiable options.  That's why you should always get second, third, fiftieth opinions...and create one yourself while trying different things.
Of course your soapbox speech is right on point.  My initial post was unclear, but "paying your dues" referred to all the soul-stripping PA work that goes on onset.  Yes, people need coffee on a set, they need towels and God knows what else, but too often I see it at the self-deceiving price of becoming Mr. Friendly to everyone.  For some of us, it's just not that easy to pull off such a routine (though a lot genuinely enjoy it, more power to them).  Thus I just don't see myself having to do that necessarily as a path to anywhere, as you said.  Meet the right people, do your job as best you can and you will earn their respect.  Of course it's much easier to do your job the best you can when you love it.  And I appreciate and see very much the importance of everything that goes into the editing process, of which I happily partake.

Thank you for sharing your experience.  It's given me a very helpful perspective on this previously mysterious part of the industry.

Thanks Chris.  Yours is a good story and gives me a much better idea of other ways of going about it.  I'm still early on in this whole demystification process, but slowly, through examples like your own, am beginning to unravel the whole thing.  I may never learn all I can, just all that I need.  Thanks again