jasperfdo:

Basic marketing applies to anything from selling butter to Hitler's atrocities against the Jews - the public is always all to ready to believe whatever is popular at the time. 

 I take it by this you meant Hitler's attempts to convince the German people that Jews were sub-human and a threat to Germany. The propaganda film "The Eternal Jew" comes to mind.

jasperfdo:

This is what I was trying to say when starting this thread - nothing matters but "perception".

I think you're twisting my words quite a bit. When I'm talking about perception, I mean that Apple might release something called FCS3, but that we would consider FCS2.5, but that the user base will be quite happy with. Anyone who thinks FCP isn't "pro" enough to deliver the goods is pretty blind. Yes, there may be issues, but I can attest to the fact that FCP is perfectly capable of delivering any type of video product you wish - and does so each and every day. To not acknowledge this is to take the ostrich approach.

It's erroneous to claim "Apple only buys apps" or that "nothing has been done since FCP3". Yes, a lot of FCS2 includes acquired apps and technology, but they have generally been modified and improved in the years that Apple has owned them. Some, like Motion and Aperture (a pro app, but not in FCS) are internally-developed.

What Apple is good at - far better than Avid - is marketing. Where perception counts is that Apple has a way of coming out with a me-too feature and instantly instills a sense of ownership. FCP's "open format timeline" and ProRes422 codecs are simply a later FCP installment of something Avid had done a couple of years earlier. Yet, when Apple does it, the world thinks it's unique. Perception yes, but it doesn't take away from the reality that the feature is still a solid improvement.

So when we talk about Avid, what about things like native codec support, mixed frame rates, third party hardware support, etc.?

I know many former Avid editors/owners who shifted to FCP/FCS. Nearly all recognize MC3.0 to be a better app. None are ready to go back.

- Oliver

Are you saying that people using FCP believe that they work with a "pro" NLE system while they are not? They just perceive that?

,- Did I say that??

Where??

First and foremost, USER is a very ambiguous term.

I'm a FCS user myself, but I'm not a FCS advocate. I've been using FCP since version 1.2.5.

But I'm not a FCS defender, very far from that.

Second, is not the software what makes you or your work a professional one.

 No you did not say that. Your words left it open to interpretation. That's why I ask. In your other post you explain better...

 I agree with you on your vision on marketing. The choice made by "users" is for sure not made only on technical quality only. As I wrote in previous post, appeal plays a role. Appeal is in many (if not all) ways perception. Question is how much does it play a role with the professional. It was the same with windows 95/98/ME... it was crap, still everybody wanted it....... but not me...

I'm not saying FCP is not professional but it lacks some basic functionality avid has and those are mostly related to reliability (in case things go wrong) and project sharing. That is not perception. At the same time we see Apple's Marketing strategy and see an app with less eating away from avid's market share, so I conclude that avid should pay attention on what happens in the market and adapt both products and marketing strategy.

Again the question is if the professional is influenced by these perceptions. I'm sure he is, he is human, (I am) but less then my grandmother and less then the kids now learning to edit. In the last group avid has to improve image.

 eating away from,AVID's market share.... sorry mistake.

jveekeres:

 eating away from,AVID's market share.... sorry mistake.

Hi,

Just to make sure you're aware, you can edit your posts rather than posting again.

good luck,
Carl

Indeed thx camoscato for pointing out this feature.... I'll not have to post again.

Funny how a thread about Avid's marketing vs. Apple's turns into a FCP vs. Avid thread number 1,245,010.

If Avid had Apple's marketing budget, Chiat Day (its powerhouse creative ad agency), and years of international branding to establish itself, it might have a chance of competing with Apple's 'image'.  But I have to say, I haven't seen a single FCP ad targeting the mainstream like it does with Iphone or Ipod (the real money makers). I think the discussion should be 'Apple's image vs. Avid'.

But all this doesn't matter, and I think Avid has recognized this. If Avid can't stay ahead of the FCP development curve, then it is sunk. And though it had some major hickups, the new product rollout supports this thinking.

kellyv:

Funny how a thread about Avid's marketing vs. Apple's turns into a FCP vs. Avid thread number 1,245,010.

I think the discussion should be 'Apple's image vs. Avid'.

I think it can't help becoming a bit about the Avid vs. FCP, because we're talking about the marketing and the hype - the features boasted about in FCP that simply don't seem to come to fruition. For many of us (especially those using FCP for big jobs) it is even more acute, we know things are possible and how much easier they are, but they are lacking in FCP (or in some cases in Avid). Comparing features is unavoidable.

I'd really like to see some surveys amongst FCP users to see what their image of Avid actually is. My feeling is that for a great number of them their impression is very very wrong - they will be unaware of Avid's features, and underrate it - because Avid doesn't really go out there and sell itself. On the other hand, I think a survey of Avid users about what FCP can do would also be wrong, but in the other way. We hear a lot of hype about FCP's features and abilities, but when it comes down to it a lot of that is over stated and the reality is often quite different.

For quite a long time now I've want to do some real-world head-to-head tests with Avid and FCP, the sorts of tasks we all face every day, see where the strengths and weaknesses of each system lie, in the hands of skilled users. I think Avid will win some and so will FCP, but I think I have a fairly good idea about the types of tasks each will excell at.

I think there's a bigger question here. It is hard to make this stuff badly anymore. There aren't great secrets to designing NLE software. Can any one company dominate the market any longer? This is no longer true of most of the niches in our business. Look at cameras. Even JVC gets respect these days. No matter what Avid does, it isn't going to gain 90% of the NLE market in this day and time, even if they paid you to take the software. It's in this reality that Avid has to survive and do the most logical steps to please the existing user base and make money for the shareholders. Keeping customers is easier that gaining new ones or bringing back old ones who have moved to someone else.

- Oliver

Sycophant:

I've want to do some real-world head-to-head tests with Avid and FCP, the sorts of tasks we all face every day, see where the strengths and weaknesses of each system lie, in the hands of skilled users

That would be a good idea, But how would you compare avids "unity" featues with fcp... with XSan? Then your test will end fast..... So stand alone FCP v3 against MCv3 yes, good idea to do this test, but avid has so much more products like unity and airspeed that for a broadcaster the choice will most probably always be avid.... 

jveekeres:

So stand alone FCP v3 against MCv3 yes, good idea to do this test, but avid has so much more products like unity and airspeed that for a broadcaster the choice will most probably always be avid.... 

That's the situation we're in right now planning our new facility when we move to Ft. Meade in about 3 years from now. At this time, FCP has no working version of a Unity caliber shared storage and tapeless exchange system, so it will remain Avid as most of the buying decisions must be locked in soon to get all the paperwork through this huge bureaucracy in time.

 Larry,

Are you seriously planning now what you will use in 3 years? In software development that is like I plan what car I'll drive in 30 years....

 Unfortunately yes, because the DoD procurement process is so unbelievably convoluted and complicated with many, many layers of management review and approval that to bring a brand new facility into existence literally from the ground up (they're constructing a new building specifically for the new "DMA" - Defense Media Agency) that the process must begin now. I don't like to do it this way, but it's a decision made over my head. And who knows where FCP and their versions of servers will be in 3 years? But I think it's a pretty safe bet that Avid products will still be around for the broadcast industry for quite some time to come.

 Ok, I understand. This brings a very interesting aspect into this thread. When talking about decisions that affect acquisition in 3 years, perception becomes a mayor aspect in the decisionmaking. Like you said: "who knows where FCP and their versions of servers will be in 3 years?" In that way marketing starts playing a bigger role. Although one sees direction in the development of NLE systems and sees direction in the changes in market, still predicting what an NLE will be like in 3 years is speculation. 

If I were in your shoes I would also advice the "decision makers" to buy avid. But knowing that the acquisition will take place in 3 years I would add a remark that this advice is based on past experiences and current features and performance and that these factors are subject to change fast, and most certainly within the time period of 3 years, and that therefor the advice is also subject to perception and speculation.

I know what I'm about to say now is close to impossible. You would have to convince the decision makers to decide on "direction" not on exact specification or lets say a momentary picture of the current products. In normal words you choose a workflow, then you choose a company/product that meets that workflow, and then you choose at the moment of acquisition the specific equipment. It might very well be the case that in 3 years the whole current product line of avid is replaced with new products. In a world where the technological development goes faster and faster and inovations follow eachother up faster the "Bureaucrats" can't stop those developments. They will have to adapt or like you said, and I agree with your words, that "those swiming against the current will in the end fall out".

Bureaucraty is, and will always be, frustrating. It will always be a part of our jobs but if it reaches a point where it makes a company "fall out" then you better find another employer.