berga:

I think You are rigth if You think of non-corporate/broadcast demand for video productions. E.g. wedding video is not a large business in most European countries.

 

...I'm probably guilty of generalizing here, but every European person I have ever dealt with in the film industry has had a completely different ethos toward post production. Europeans don't go cheapo on anything ! These folks cannot be classed as consumers. A good example of this is the German made FlashScan made in Berlin. Reference http://www.mwa-nova.com/flashscan8.htm

Now this machine transfers Regular 8mm and Super 8 Sound film to video. This is an amazingly engineered high quality device. This device costs well over $50 Grand Canadian. I tried to explain no one in the 8 mm transfer business in North America will pay $50 plus Grand for a friggin 8 mm transfer device. I suggested some museum archivists can justify these kinds of prices. I asked them how many machines they had sold in Europe and I think they said 200 plus in Germany, France, England ad Belgium. I also asked them how many they sold in Canada. They informed me none. They only sold less than a handful in the US. But in Europe, folks recognize quality and will pay for it.

What I find really interesting is how few people in this thread perceive that Avid has dishonestly marketted their product to home users.  It seems to be a concern of just one or two.

I found Xpress DV at a trade show.  At the time I was a freelance editor, using predominantly Avid and Lightworks.  Up till then I had made a conscious decision not to invest in my own hardware, because as an early adopter I had got burned by product churn.

Since that first purchase I've used my own Avid gear through Xpress DV, Xpress Pro and MC.  In parallel, I still work with other people's equipment, both Avid and non-Avid.  In our area at least I've watched the swelling tide of FCP swamping the broadcast and film markets.  I've even had a client come in to work with me and ask what type of FCP I was using, because he couldn't recognise it.  I've seen equipment suppliers drop their Avid lines altogether.

So do I think that Avid is corruptly marketting to inexperienced users?  No, I damn well don't!  I think that what they're really trying to do is what any sensible company in their position would.

They're simply trying to regain market share in the market that they effectively created in the first place.

jwrl:

What I find really interesting is how few people in this thread perceive that Avid has dishonestly marketted their product to home users. 

 ...I wouldn't characterise this as some kind of under handed or dishonest thing on Avid's part. I would suggest only that it was an unwise move because Avid is a totally pro application and it's beyond most consumers. Even if you don't consider Avid to have deliberately marketed any of their products to consumers, the lower price apps make consumers jump on the band wagon and season these threads.

Laptopeditor:

berga:

I think You are rigth if You think of non-corporate/broadcast demand for video productions. E.g. wedding video is not a large business in most European countries.

 

...I'm probably guilty of generalizing here, but every European person I have ever dealt with in the film industry has had a completely different ethos toward post production. Europeans don't go cheapo on anything ! These folks cannot be classed as consumers. A good example of this is the German made FlashScan made in Berlin. Reference http://www.mwa-nova.com/flashscan8.htm

Now this machine transfers Regular 8mm and Super 8 Sound film to video. This is an amazingly engineered high quality device. This device costs well over $50 Grand Canadian. I tried to explain no one in the 8 mm transfer business in North America will pay $50 plus Grand for a friggin 8 mm transfer device. I suggested some museum archivists can justify these kinds of prices. I asked them how many machines they had sold in Europe and I think they said 200 plus in Germany, France, England ad Belgium. I also asked them how many they sold in Canada. They informed me none. They only sold less than a handful in the US. But in Europe, folks recognize quality and will pay for it.

 

In this case I can not disagree with You. I transfered our old family D8mm to video 10 years ago with scanning. But, this is also important, there was several, often small photo resellers who transfered 8mm by videoing the movies.

But there is another different view of movie and video production in Europe, or at least the small language areas such as Sweden, Finland and Denmark. 35mm movies is rear. Televison did use 16mm for drama. We invented super-16 because it is cheaper than 35mm.

In Sweden we also adopt HDCAM for theatrical releases very fast, on of the first HDCAM movie on theater was done in Sweden e.g. I think most of the TV-dramas today is on video (maybe they who no this better may correct me).

The budgets for our movies varies from low budget Hollywood to low budget indy film. I think most our movies has budgets which is low even for indy filmmakers in north America. The rase for low cost solutions is real even in Europe.

Another aspect is the fact that until the last 10 years, the television market was small and monopolised in most european coutries. Today, we got lots of new digital channels who need content, but can not pay the prices the old fat public service companies could some years ago. This make low cost productions more and more common.

But I think your perception of the european market is build by the fact that then We went abroad to meed other people in the business, we meet the established people. Just as I would meet establish people if I went to Canada/US. None of us meet people who struggle in the low end market.

In my view, it is more the market which make if possibly to us for afford a high quality profile. And ofcourse, the european test is judge as high quality compare to the vulgar (or popular) north American taset which by definition make our tast good. (OBS, irony!!!!!!!!)

Reading the whole topic I think most has been said. Still I would like to add some perspective with editing history in mind.

25 years ago when there was only linear editing, broadcast quality video editing was only for people or companies with large amounts of money. Sony Betacam SP (let's skip B,C and umatic formats) became the first worldwide broadcasting standard (among many others later). Not only were these video's expensive they had little or no use at home at that time. Except for the fact that they were big, heavy and ugly, without a Time Base Corrector you could not record your TV or VHS signals. Professional technicians understood all these limitations and needs of this pro equipment. So for TV making there was an enourmous list of system requirements at enormous prices.

With the intoduction digital technology (digital video and audio) and the computer in the editing world this has changed. Avid, together with media 100 and quantel were the pioneers in this field. The first non linear editing I worked with was a Media 100 on an apple 9500. Soon followed by the first avid, an Avid AVBV on an apple 9500 on OS 7.1. At that time it costed a fortune.

But since then the prices have dropped, the quality improved and editing became a lot easier. What remained were the system requirements. Ignoring those was never and will never be an option for professional video editing. From that point avid's marketing strategy I understand and people complaining about avid on this forum should not be trying to hide behind their finger when things do not work cause they do not read and then blaim avid. But....

Avid and we, the professionals, have to understand that times are changing. Ignoring what was previoulsy described as "Uncle harry" or the non-professional would be arrogant. Pro editing is no longer a exclusive domain of the elite professional user.... pretending that it is is arrogant and stupid.

Avid and we, professionals, started using the consumer operating system windows. Not the other way around. We could have stayed with apple (at that time only used by pro's) or made versions for Unix on silicon graphics. On the other hand when microsoft dropped the windows 95/98/me series (Kernel) and only continued with NT/2000/XP windows became more pro.

So over time the non professionals start using more professional tools and the professionals start using more non professional tools. That's a simple reality. And I guess that in the future professionalisme will become more of a personal attitude issue towards your work than an equipment/software issue.   

My point in this topic. Please dear (future) editors: Read the system requirements before buying avid. This is a professional tool with a professional history. You save yourself a lot of trouble doing so. And most of all it is common sense. Do you buy a car or a house without reading anything? Or do you buy and take medicine without talking to a professional doctor or reading the instructions. If so you're an idiot and the people in this forum can't help you with that. Schools, teachers, psychologists and psychiatrists maybe can.

Please avid. The issue with the realtek HD audio cards exists for more then a year. This card is used in most modern laptops and also appears on many motherboards in desktop systems. Your system specification do NOT mention that a specific sound card like a soundblaster card is needed. A professional editing solution like avid solves those issues or specifically mentions that it can only work with certain sound cards.

And now it comes... When you have a realtek HD audio card. You buy a USB soundblaster or C-Media sound card. Then avid starts up normally and you have sound thru the USB audio card. If you minimize avid and in your windows audio settings you reselect your realtek audio card as the one to play audio and maximize avid again... voila avid plays thru your realtek HD card. Sorry but that is sad avid.... very sad...... FIX IT!!!!!.....if you consider yourself professional..... 

 

"Avid and we, the professionals, have to understand that times are changing. Ignoring what was previoulsy described as "Uncle harry" or the non-professional would be arrogant."

The arugment is not whether or not Avid/professionals are ignoring Uncle Harry - it is that Avid never marketed to Uncle Harry.. Uncle Harry came to Avid, purchased the application, then complained that Avid is terrible with it's limitations.

"The issue with the realtek HD audio cards exists for more then a year. This card is used in most modern laptops and also appears on many motherboards in desktop systems. Your system specification do NOT mention that a specific sound card like a soundblaster card is needed."

Whilst I agree that Avid's system specs are tight and don't mention a specific audio card - do any of the approved systems (as listed) ask you to install anything outside of the base system? They give you the specs (off the shelf), outside of adding a 2nd 1394 or scsi, etc..etc.. - but no mention of audio board.

If the system comes with a Realtk board - who asked for it to be put there?

"No, but you still will have to deal with Uncle Harry because he's jumped on board wether you want him there or not."

This is much different than aiming at Uncle Harry though. He jumped on board, randomly. And you don't have to deal with him... that's why Avid tech support don't deal with those who have unapproved systems. Plain and simple.

It seems you are shifting your position from that of marketing to how Avid should handle the unexpected Uncle Harry's. I'm with Avid - don't deal with him. He was not, and has never been, their target customer. As was said, by someone else who I agree with, you can't please everyone all the time.. but do the best to please your target market... which I believe Avid is attempting to do.

"Mark a box with FREE and fill it with excrement...

 

...No thanks. And the point is ??????????????"

My point was, seeing as you took just partial of that thought, that if you do the above and market it to farmers and gardeners - they will accept the offer and they may look twice at that product to purchase. Uncle Harry was never marketed - but (as in your logic that FREE means it was marketed to everyone [yes, you did say this too]) Uncle Harry will not only take this free item, but will also pay for it... then complain that it's a box of excrement.

"The car anology is your subject matter budy-not mine"

Almos true.. mine was more simplified as to the offer surrounding the purchase of the car (which was the original disussion), but you took it to marketing and the product causing death, serious injury, further attempting to demonise Avid with some vague correlation.

"As was said, lower prices does not mean, 'Uncle Harry - this products for you'.

 

...Uhh, yes it does. To them price is everything"

But again, the product was not marketed to Uncle Harry. You seem to believe that lower price means Avid targeted Uncle Harry... yet you continue to not provide some form of factual/logical explanation that you charged earlier.

"Just because one is a consumer does not necessarily imply they are all poor folk."

I never implied that - but in regards to a large portion of the population $1,600 is a months rent/mortgage payment.. spending $1,600 on a disc with an editing application, that I am using for a hobby that I never researched in the first place, is an awful large waste don't you think?

"If you want to go around calling people idiots, then by all means, please continue, but I've dealt wityh many customers like this before."

The old addage of 'the customer is always right, even when they are wrong' no longer applies when the customer should be educating themselves on their purchase... not the company educating the customer (which I address below).

"As a seller, my first instict would be to take this gentleman aside and educate him him a little, if I could, about what he's getting himself into."

There is this new thing - it's only about 10 years old now, maybe more - where Avid training facilities offer courses to educate folks in the handling of their application... the same that Adobe have.. you can even buy books.

In addition, since the internet and Avid came together, look on the companies website and it will even tell you the EXACT system specification the application needs to run for FREE.

You can only give so much information, Uncle Harry has to make the decision to get it. If he decides not to educate himself, when so much is available for FREE (when it comes to system requirements), your argument has no merit... Uncle Harry made the choice NOT to educate himself and then complains that it is the companies fault.

I don't think it should be "buyer beware".. but more of "buyer, be aware".

jveekeres:

Reading the whole topic I think most has been said. Still I would like to add some perspective with editing history in mind.

25 years ago when there was only linear editing, broadcast quality video editing was only for people or companies with large amounts of money. Sony Betacam SP (let's skip B,C and umatic formats) became the first worldwide broadcasting standard (among many others later). Not only were these video's expensive they had little or no use at home at that time. Except for the fact that they were big, heavy and ugly, without a Time Base Corrector you could not record your TV or VHS signals. Professional technicians understood all these limitations and needs of this pro equipment. So for TV making there was an enourmous list of system requirements at enormous prices.

With the intoduction digital technology (digital video and audio) and the computer in the editing world this has changed. Avid, together with media 100 and quantel were the pioneers in this field. The first non linear editing I worked with was a Media 100 on an apple 9500. Soon followed by the first avid, an Avid AVBV on an apple 9500 on OS 7.1. At that time it costed a fortune.

But since then the prices have dropped, the quality improved and editing became a lot easier. What remained were the system requirements. Ignoring those was never and will never be an option for professional video editing. From that point avid's marketing strategy I understand and people complaining about avid on this forum should not be trying to hide behind their finger when things do not work cause they do not read and then blaim avid. But....

Avid and we, the professionals, have to understand that times are changing. Ignoring what was previoulsy described as "Uncle harry" or the non-professional would be arrogant. Pro editing is no longer a exclusive domain of the elite professional user.... pretending that it is is arrogant and stupid.

Avid and we, professionals, started using the consumer operating system windows. Not the other way around. We could have stayed with apple (at that time only used by pro's) or made versions for Unix on silicon graphics. On the other hand when microsoft dropped the windows 95/98/me series (Kernel) and only continued with NT/2000/XP windows became more pro.

So over time the non professionals start using more professional tools and the professionals start using more non professional tools. That's a simple reality. And I guess that in the future professionalisme will become more of a personal attitude issue towards your work than an equipment/software issue.   

My point in this topic. Please dear (future) editors: Read the system requirements before buying avid. This is a professional tool with a professional history. You save yourself a lot of trouble doing so. And most of all it is common sense. Do you buy a car or a house without reading anything? Or do you buy and take medicine without talking to a professional doctor or reading the instructions. If so you're an idiot and the people in this forum can't help you with that. Schools, teachers, psychologists and psychiatrists maybe can.

Please avid. The issue with the realtek HD audio cards exists for more then a year. This card is used in most modern laptops and also appears on many motherboards in desktop systems. Your system specification do NOT mention that a specific sound card like a soundblaster card is needed. A professional editing solution like avid solves those issues or specifically mentions that it can only work with certain sound cards.

And now it comes... When you have a realtek HD audio card. You buy a USB soundblaster or C-Media sound card. Then avid starts up normally and you have sound thru the USB audio card. If you minimize avid and in your windows audio settings you reselect your realtek audio card as the one to play audio and maximize avid again... voila avid plays thru your realtek HD card. Sorry but that is sad avid.... very sad...... FIX IT!!!!!.....if you consider yourself professional..... 

 

 ...I just want to take this opportunity and thank jveekeres for an eloquent and concise summation of several points I have been trying to make in this thread with members solopost and others, but have failed miserably. Your post serves as a reasonable reality check for us.

 

"I just want to take this opportunity and thank jveekeres for an eloquent and concise summation of several points I have been trying to make in this thread with members solopost and others, but have failed miserably. Your post serves as a reasonable reality check for us."

Your points have been understood clearly. It is the logic and facts behind them that is been in question.

Solopost:

Your points have been understood clearly. It is the logic and facts behind them that is been in question.

 ...Yeah whatever. I don't really care anymore. Nor does anyone else at this point. I didn't start the thread anyway.

 

did they take care of the transcoder problem?

thanks

Miike

Solopost... altough we seem to be very close in our opinions there is one thing in your argument I'm missung and a difference in attitude towards Uncle harry.

It's not that I'm asking avid to deal with Uncle Harry or do anything to support him or even bother to.... I want to hold avid up to our, and also it's own, professional standards. If avid wants to be pro then they would have to specify the requirement of a typical soundcard or only state that it works with the specific HP, Dell and Apple machines. They do not!!!!!!! They state that their software is tested and approved on those systems. They guarrantee that it works.... But on the site of avid it also gives system requirements to build your own pc. You meet them and your system has no sound... that is not professional...  as simpel as that.  If I follow your argumentation avid should remove these system requirements (or correct them) and state that avid only works on the specific machines. In that case you would be 100% right.

Furthermore.. I believe this problem with the realtek HD card is an error in programming by avid as it plays sound fine..... 

As a professional and a forum user I think there is nothing wrong with Uncle harry existence and him being on this forum. You and I also started as Uncle Harry or were you born a professional? Or were the first books you ever read the avid manuals? The thing I learned (and still learn) is to keep updating my knowledge and share it with my co-workers or others (on this forum) when asked for. The knowledge we professionals buildup over the years is what makes us so valuable. But it's value is only increased by sharing.

People Like Randall and Jeff (Doc avid) are worth so much cause they share knowledge. They could just as well count their money.... there contributions have helped so many also where avid sometimes is not at is best.

If Uncle Harry's wants to learn he's welcome if he doesn't we can't fix that.....neither can avid. But if Uncle Harry exposes a problem with avid we don't ignore it cause he's Uncle Harry.

 

jveekeres:

But on the site of avid it also gives system requirements to build your own pc.

Must be me, but specific parts are there to clarify the configuration of the specific machines because they have no control if HP or Dell changes the parts. And there are configurations within an HP system that was never tested. That is why there are specifics about CPU, soundcard, et.

People used that info to do some DIYers. Some how people thought that was some kind of official blessing. I don't remember Avid ever saying "x motherboard is what you need to make your own." So I think you are mistaken in that part.

There is no argument, Avid targets professionals. Consumer space was left to Pinnacle products. XDV was the introductory product - but even that followed the MC system of specific qualified specifications (which to Avid is a jumping board for professional use).

So this idea that Avid wanted Uncle Harry to edit on an Avid for his kids is in fact delusional. In fact, that has been a criticism by the DIYers - that Avid does not officially support them.

 

Dom indeed you are right about that. Avid does not give the sytem requirements to build our own pc.... and yes avid targets professionals.

But you state that:

specific parts are there to clarify the configuration of the specific machines because they have no control if HP or Dell changes the parts.

It states on the avid site: We have also listed a set of minimum specifications. Please note that these are provided for reference only....  They want to explain to us (professionals) what is inside a HP or Dell? No. That info we can get from HP or Dell.  I do not believe or am able to determine out of avids words that this is a disclaimer in case HP or Dell change something in a their machines.

But besides that... If avid thinks it ineccessary to but those system requirements on their site they should make them complete and accurate. 

Practically:  Just putting the soundmax soundcard in the list will not be that much of an issue will it? 

jveekeres:

Practically:  Just putting the soundmax soundcard in the list will not be that much of an issue will it? 

 ...For what it's worth, I can confirm I am running the SoundMax Souncard in my HP nw 9440 power laptop and I've never had any issues with AXP or MC not functioning with this card. Forgive my ignorance, but isn't the SoundMax Sound Card made by Realtek ?

EDIT: Make that the SoundMax HD Audio Card.

 No not realtek but analog devices....