berga:

Just some thougt about this problem.

...Hi Berga. You are in Europe. The market mentality and market itself is totally different in Europe. Europeans recognize quality and are willing to pay for it. I would suggest Europe does not have the same consumer market as we do in Canada & the United States.

.

 

SandmanX82:

Avid did not take out ads in Best Buy papers.  They did not advertise on TV.  You didn't hear about it on the radio.  Etc.

 ...Nor was Adobe Premiere, but it is a consumer desktop editing product. FCP does not take adds in Best Buy either. So what ? You are saying this is the measure of consumer marketing of video editing apps. I disagree.

SandmanX82:

You're putting to much stock into what a consumer is. 

...The whole market is made up of consumers. We are not the norm .

SandmanX82:

As for Avid Free, it was indeed used to get people used to the avid interface so that they would buy into Avid in the future. 

....By definition and association, anything marketed FREE of charge is going to be picked up by consumers.

Laptopeditor:

SandmanX82:

Avid did not take out ads in Best Buy papers.  They did not advertise on TV.  You didn't hear about it on the radio.  Etc.

 ...Nor was Adobe Premiere, but it is a consumer desktop editing product. FCP does not take adds in Best Buy either. So what ? You are saying this is the measure of consumer marketing of video editing apps. I disagree.

 

Yes, and Adobe Premiere Pro and Final Cut Pro are NOT consumer products either.  I've worked with both at professional studios.  What do you think Premiere Elements and Final Cut Express are for?  THOSE are consumer products, and incidentally you can buy those at consumer stores.  Again, even if you disagree with Premiere Pro being professional or not (which it indeed is), consumers do not spend close to $1000 on editing apps.  If my Aunt Karent wanted to edit her videos, I guarantee you that she would drive down to Best Buy and buy a program for $50 or $100 off the shelf.  I'm willing to bet that she is representative of 99.9% of consumers.

Laptopeditor:

SandmanX82:

You're putting to much stock into what a consumer is. 

...The whole market is made up of consumers. We are not the norm .

EXACTLY!  Us Avid buyers do not represent consumer buyers.  Joe Shmoe does not go out and spend $1600 on editing software to edit he son's birthday.

Laptopeditor:

SandmanX82:

As for Avid Free, it was indeed used to get people used to the avid interface so that they would buy into Avid in the future. 

....By definition and association, anything marketed FREE of charge is going to be picked up by consumers.

So again, how is that Avid's fault?  Anybody can download a free trial of After Effects, right?  Does that mean that a consumer should think they can use it?  No.  If they do decide to download it, see what it's all about, and then buy it, it's their own fault they can't do anything with it.  Not Adobe's.  They had a chance to see what it was.  Same with Avid Free.  If a regular Joe decides to download it, see what it's all about, and then buy it, it's his own fault he can't do anything with it.  Not Avid's.  And again, if he decides not to buy it and just use the Free version, then he still can't complain to Avid because he didn't spend any money on it.  He can just stop using it.  Simple as that.  You skipped addressing this whole point I made.

 

 

Laptopeditor:

...Nor was Adobe Premiere, but it is a consumer desktop editing product. FCP does not take adds in Best Buy either.

Adobe makes Premiere Elements, which is a consumer app.  If you buy this and decide you need more, you upgrade.  Premiere Elements is availabe at box stores around the world, and when you buy a PC you can usually choose to have it included in your purchase.

Apple makes the hardware and software.  You go to Apple.com to buy an iMac so you can surf the internet and you see ads for FCP and Final Cut Express all over the page.  When you go to HP or Dell, you don't see ads for Avid all over the place.  You have to go to Avid's website to see those ads, or a professional editing/post production site to see them. That's the difference.  Adobe and Apple make very obviously consumer oriented apps (Adobe Elements/Final Cut Express), and they're advertised directly to consumers with direct upgrade paths.  I've seen ads for Avid Xpress in Maximum PC magazine, that's about as consumer as it gets.  And the folks reading Maximum PC are typically a lot more invested tech wise than Uncle Harry walking the aisles of Best Buy.

 

Laptopeditor:

....By definition and association, anything marketed FREE of charge is going to be picked up by consumers.

 Unless it's not easy for the consumers to find.  Linux is free--I don't see every consumer in the world unistalling Windows and loading some flavor of Linux.  Gimp is free, but people still buy Photoshop Elements instead because it's advertised to them.  Most companies don't heavily advertise free products because they don't money on a free product.  AVG is free anti-virus software, but Norton still sells the crap out of their product.  Free doesn't mean consumer, it means free.  Blender is Free, but it's perfectly capable of making some great 3D stuff, but i's also hard as hell to use.

 

Michael.

Avid XPRO ,Adobe Premiere and Final Cut Pro are not consumer products.

It is upto the buyer to work out which product best suits there needs and each company will have a marketing department who's job is to say buy our product.

 

 

NICKB:

each company will have a marketing department who's job is to say buy our product.

 

And that's why each individual customer needs to carefully assess his/her needs, wants, goals and wallet to determine which of many products available is the best fit for them.

NICKB:

Avid XPRO ,Adobe Premiere and Final Cut Pro are not consumer products.

 

I agree.  No consumer who wants to play around with video is going to drop around $1000 for editing software; they'll go down to Best Buy and ask the high school kid behind the counter which $35 package to buy off the shelf.

Xpress Pro was, and Premiere and FCP are designed for and marketed to professionals who use the software to make money.

adios,
Carl

Laptopeditor:

The market mentality and market itself is totally different in Europe. Europeans recognize quality and are willing to pay for it. I would suggest Europe does not have the same consumer market as we do in Canada & the United States.

Hi Mark,

Are you seriously making a generalization about the consumer habits of 2 continents with a population of about a billion people between them?

adios,
Carl

"Europeans recognize quality and are willing to pay for it. I would suggest Europe does not have the same consumer market as we do in Canada & the United States."

So now you are saying in Europe the difference is between marketing or the people who buy?

"What the heck do you think it was FREE for ??????????"

I believe the answer was given, but here it is again. To market to future editors and those interested in Avid products. Just because Uncle Harry came looking does not mean it was marketed to him.

"By definition and association, anything marketed FREE of charge is going to be picked up by consumers."

Mark a box with FREE and fill it with excrement... I wonder how many folks are going to end up paying for a box of this stuff? Now, if you marketed that free box to farmers and garden folks.. now your onto something... the may try that box, find out it works well and end up buying the product.

"Then why do they always emphasize how fast the car can go, or almost always show the car being driven fast with small little type at the bottom which says something like, "Professional driver. Do not attempt ?" This is marketing to allure the consumer and it creates certain expectations which inevitably leads to road rage, death, serious injury, etc. Should folks compalin to the car makers about how they're marketing their product ? Yes I think they should because speeding is dangerous ! There are laws to protect consumers and companies who are legally held to advertising guidelines for a reason."

Laws.. if car companies did not meet those guidelines they would not be allowed to advertise false claims - the car can go fast, if true = include in advert.

It seems you are going off the deep end with your subject matter - if someone buys a car, drives like an idiot and kills themselves... and the Darwin Awards goes to? We have a winner.. the car buyer. Just because it can go 100mph - the law says you are not allowed to drive it 100mph. You break the law, not the car company.

Yes, it does not make sense that a car can do 100mph + when the speed limit (most of the U.S.) is 65. But let's not bring this to this forum, as there is no correlation between a road rage, death and serious injury with an editing application.

"I am simply pointing out that the responsibility resides on both sides."

The law would disagree. If you are making a morality argument - take this to theological website.. wrong place.. wrong argument.

"Again... if your perspective of Avid is that it is for "lower end prosumer and consumer users".. then you are all good to have that....

 ....No ! I've never written that."

Actually you did - re-read your posts - notice I quote you. Hence your comment in quotes.

"Are they just a pack of dummies who didn't do their homework, thus it's their fault ?"

Yes.

"Did Avid never market to such people in the first place ?"

Correct.

"This maybe true for some, but does not explain the fact that there are a hell of a lot of people who participate in these forums who were and still are amature editors who use Avid XDV, Avid Liguid, Avid Xpress Pro."

I don't think anyone can explain a fact for everyone who uses these products... or uses this forum - except those who are here. I am part of this forum because I was part of the original forum, pre-Avid. I was an Avid user since the early 90's - and this forum is of great assistance to many. But again, you argument of who Avid marketed to is starting to lose track.

"Once the price gets low enough, then the mongrol hoards will come flooding in."

As was said, lower prices does not mean, 'Uncle Harry - this products for you'. With your notion of lower prices - what was Avid thinking - attract Uncle Harry... Avid should have kept the prices high to make sure that Uncle Harry would look at Avid and proclaim, 'oh, that's expensive, it must mean it is not marketed at me' - no.. Uncle Harry should be shot like [insert some really horrible thing here] for being an idiot. Regardless of price, the product was not marketed to Uncle Harry because he is not the demographic for Avid.. it's editors, those who know, those who want to know - always has been. And, recently, those who are highly interested in knowing (students in television and video), future editors.

"Or do you mean that people assumed it would be easy because it was being made cheaper? 

...Yes. Exactly. They thought they were purchasing Adobe Premiere for Windows."

When I go and buy a car - I don't buy a Ford and think i'm buying a BMW. When I buy a Sony television, I don't get it mixed up with a Panasonic...

You now seem to getting down to the answer - the buyer makes the decision. If they were too stupid to realise what they were buying - it's their fault.

"Or were these the typical empty promises so often made by resellers who will tell you anything you want to hear to make the sale?

 

....Yes. This is also a large factor in many folks being led down the garden path, as we say."

To follow a vein, ask 100 random people on the street "what is an Avid reseller" or "can you direct me to an Avid reseller" - don't think many/any will give the answer we are discussing here. Why won't they know? Easy.. Avid is never marketed to them.

The original starter of the useless thread, tpiom (not Steeldestoyer as you incorreclty state), was an idiot. They spent $1,600 on a piece of software - then tossed it aside. They then spent another few hundered dollars on a newer version of the software - then tossed it aside. Then, they spent a few more hundred dollars on an upgrade version of the software - and, as implied, tossed it aside. They quote a problem with Realtek cards - documented (for ANYONE who has researched the product) and, in some instances, folks have it working.

Sorry, but if I am going to spend $1,600 on a single disc with an editing application - I am sure well going to research what I need to make it work. 

You seem to be constantly mixing up your direction.. your points.. contradicting and even denying your own statements. Avid never marketed to Uncle Harry - Uncle Harry came looking for Avid. It is never been/is not the sellers responsibility to educate the customer. You have argued that they 'should', well, coulda, shoulda, woulda is not any legal matter. Want to go the morality route - again - wrong place, wrong argument.

Want to discuss fact - still avoiding your adamant point of Avid marketing to the Uncle Harry but not providing any proof to where - that I can provide proof of Avid marketing in broadcasting/video trade publications.. broadcast video stores.. places where, gosh forbid, those studying video and television production congregate... then please... stay on topic.

As I said earlier your argument is losing footing, slowly, as you argue global perception and advertising responsible for death and serious injury.

 Boy, reading all this makes me wonder - - doesn't anybody want to know what they're buying before they buy it anymore?  I mean, this is not like going out on a blind date. A little comparison shopping before buying, and maybe a sit down test drive at a store with a display system set up. This is where Apple made BIG inroads and caught a major marketing advantage - by putting FCP on platforms in the stores that you the customer can walk right up to and try out. There's an Apple Store in the Montgomery Mall Shopping Center in well to do Montgomery County Maryland with exactly that. That's the market that Avid is apparently not interested in.

Larry Rubin:

There's an Apple Store in the Montgomery Mall Shopping Center in well to do Montgomery Country Maryland with exactly that. That's the market that Avid is apparently not interested in.

Hi Larry,

How many professional editors do you think go into the Apple store in the Montgomery Mall Shopping Center having never heard of Final Cut Pro?  I agree that some random consumer might find FCP interesting, but I doubt they'll be spending $1000 (or whatever it costs) to buy it.  I'd prefer Avid concentrate on getting Media Composer into more schools and get people familiar with it early.

adios,
Carl

 Agreed Carl. I'm just pointing out a complete difference in targeting markets between Avid and Apple in terms of product visibility and product placement - Avid goes after the professional, Apple goes after the consumer. I would think primarily because they're in business to sell hardware, not software. Avid just needs to get more aggressive in it's marketing techniques to survive into the future.  

camoscato:

Hi Mark,

Are you seriously making a generalization about the consumer habits of 2 continents with a population of about a billion people between them?

...No, only an observation.

 

Laptopeditor:

 

berga:

Just some thougt about this problem.

...Hi Berga. You are in Europe. The market mentality and market itself is totally different in Europe. Europeans recognize quality and are willing to pay for it. I would suggest Europe does not have the same consumer market as we do in Canada & the United States.

 

I think You are rigth if You think of non-corporate/broadcast demand for video productions. E.g. wedding video is not a large business in most European countries. On the other side, You are about 50% richer than us, so you have money to demand video productions.

But we have a gray market, there hobbist do the work exclusive tax and copyrigth costs. The products is bad, but the price is low!

I think the difference is smaller than You indicate. The low price competition is succesfull because of two factors. First, the inablility for the buyer to pay the price of a skilled productions. Second, the inability for the skilled producers to communicate the value with a skilled production.

 

Solopost:

To market to future editors and those interested in Avid products. Just because Uncle Harry came looking does not mean it was marketed to him.

 ...No, but you still will have to deal with Uncle Harry because he's jumped on board wether you want him there or not.

Solopost:

Mark a box with FREE and fill it with excrement...

...No thanks. And the point is ??????????????

Solopost:

It seems you are going off the deep end with your subject matter -

...The car anology is your subject matter budy-not mine.

Solopost:

Yes, it does not make sense that a car can do 100mph + when the speed limit (most of the U.S.) is 65. But let's not bring this to this forum, as there is no correlation between a road rage, death and serious injury with an editing application.

...Well the car thingy is your idea not mine. There is an interesting parallel between road rage and edit application malfunctions, though.

Solopost:

As was said, lower prices does not mean, 'Uncle Harry - this products for you'.

...Uhh, yes it does. To them price is everything.

Solopost:

Avid should have kept the prices high to make sure that Uncle Harry would look at Avid and proclaim, 'oh, that's expensive,

...Actually, in one sense this argument has some merit from a post house pro point of view.

Solopost:

The original starter of the useless thread, tpiom (not Steeldestoyer as you incorreclty state), was an idiot.

...Sorry, my bad.

Solopost:

They spent $1,600 on a piece of software - then tossed it aside. They then spent another few hundered dollars on a newer version of the software - then tossed it aside. Then, they spent a few more hundred dollars on an upgrade version of the software - and, as implied, tossed it aside. They quote a problem with Realtek cards - documented (for ANYONE who has researched the product) and, in some instances, folks have it working.

...I agree this is a pretty sad approach, but sounds like a frustrated consumer (And many consumers do have money by the way. Just because one is a consumer does not necessarily imply they are all poor folk. If you want to go around calling people idiots, then by all means, please continue, but I've dealt wityh many customers like this before. You see, not everyone has to be a friggin software engineer just to run a computer. However, it is an extremely good idea to learn all you can and be as knowledgeable as you can about the editing software you are using. This is one reason I still refuse to call myself an Avid editor. I refuse to do so, until I'm sure I am technically proficient in all features and operational situations in Avid Media Composer. Only then will I finally feel I have any real right to this claim. The more I use MC the more and more I realize the full scope and potential of this application. I'm using MC at around 45% of its full potential.

...Look, I'm still learning about Avid. I have been in this business since June 1998 and I am an experienced editor, but I am NOT an experienced Avid editor yet.

Solopost:

Sorry, but if I am going to spend $1,600 on a single disc with an editing application - I am sure well going to research what I need to make it work. 

 ...Indeed. Point well taken. One is wise to research all aspects of functionality and requirements before purchasing.

Solopost:

Avid never marketed to Uncle Harry - Uncle Harry came looking for Avid. It is never been/is not the sellers responsibility to educate the customer. You have argued that they 'should', well, coulda, shoulda, woulda is not any legal matter. Want to go the morality route - again - wrong place, wrong argument.

 .....Well, you are right, but you are wrong too. Let me explain. At our post facility, we believe business is about relationships and not about money. With good relationships you can get good money and repeat customers. The guy who kept buying and throwing aside, well, welcome to the voice of ignorance. As a seller, my first instict would be to take this gentleman aside and educate him him a little, if I could, about what he's getting himself into. I know I don't have to do it, but it might avoid some of the shouting later on. I just want to have a happy customer I'm sure Avid does too.

Solopost:

You seem to be constantly mixing up your direction.. your points.. contradicting and even denying your own statements.

I am ? OK. Sorry. I tried to make myself clear to you but failed.

Solopost:

Want to discuss fact

... No. Logic is little bird in tree. My head hurts too.

Solopost:

As I said earlier your argument is losing footing, slowly, as you argue global perception and advertising responsible for death and serious injury.

...I am also beginning to suffer visual and auditory hallucinations. My Media Composer is slowly turning into an Avid Nitris DS turnkey System ! Oh sweet fantasy !