Larry Rubin:

 Personally, I don't see why anyone would have difficulty with the base Avid concept of cutting video together - mark a start (in) and mark an end (out) point on your source material in one monitor, mark an in on your edit in another monitor and press a button. Repeat, repeat and repeat and you've cut your first video. That's the core of Avid - everything else is embellishment.  Drag and drop be damned. It's really not that hard to wrap your brain around, even if you're a rank amateur.

 ...I don't. I very much like the Avid way of doing it. I didn't come from that way of editing personally, except from cutting 16 mm work prints on both a Moviola and a Steenbeck, which is what Avid is the most close to I'm NOT putting it down or criticising this editing approach. What I was simply trying to advance was the idea of a mode button and that was all. The purpose of the mode button is to assist consumers who predominently edit in drag and drop and trim on timeline ! What's the big deal with that ?

 

 Alright Mark, maybe there's a way to do that already without the need of an additional mode. I haven't tried this and I'm not at my Avid right now, but try dragging a clip to the timeline from a bin. Now, CTRL + drag a second clip and see if it "snaps to" the end of the first clip and positions itself precisely, with no black in between. Does that work?  If so, it would address my biggest concern about drag and dropping to the timeline - inaccuracy of positioning. And it would give you the capability you seek now, without any mods needed.

Solopost:

Prosumer - a professional consumer experienced in the products they purchase

 

....This is a contradiction. A professional consumer ?

Solopost:

How exactly was Uncle Harry marketed? I never saw Avid available at the local Best Buy. I don't recall seeing it the mail-flyer from Costco.

...You're kidding right ? Nor did I. But XDV & Xpro were sure marketed as low end, affordable prosumer-consumer editing solutions in freakin Montreal my friend. Who did such marketing here ? Avid resellers did my friend. In fact, XDV has always been considered a consumer grade editor up here in our market. The only reason we went for Xpress Pro (Not XDV) was because it was presented to us as an affordable desktop editing solution for digi-independent film makers and not as a turnkey MCA solution. At the time, we wanted to go for Media Composer, but we simply couldn't afford it. We are low rent wannabees at the outer fringes of the industry serving digi-underground film makers and we had just lost a $35,000.00 DPS system which fried in a brown out power failure in the Montreal Area during a mini-ice storm on December 1st 2006 (Not the great Ice Storm of 1998). Once we got hold of AXP we found out it was neither a consumer grade application because there was no Drag & Drop editing, nor was it a real professional solution as far as we are concerned because it never functioned properly with HDV projects (The bane of our existence).

....BTW, what do you think Avid Free DV was supposed to accomplish ? What sort of editor do you think instantly gravitated to that application ? What was the expectation which was created with Avid Free DV ?

....Thank God Avid saw the light and put AXP out of its misery and got us an affordable upgrade path to MC ! This was a real gift of good will from Avid and I thank them for it MC is a freakin excellent PRO application and it just blows us away with what it can do and how well it works.

Solopost:

I think it is quite the opposite.. Uncle Harry went looking for Avid - not the other way around as you blame Avid.

...No. See-you don't see it like it is man. Uncle Harry went for Avid because Avid made XDV and AXP and it was cheap enough for the consumer Uncle to go for it. Consumer involvement is inevitable when you lower the price past professional retail thresholds. Uncle Harry doesn't know how to use it, but he can afford it. Uncle Harry buys it, then complains when he gets it and shouts at Avid. Why doesn't it work on my PC like Adobe Premiere ? ! Blah ! Blah ! Blah !

Solopost:

So if Uncle Harry calls (example here) B&H and say, "Hi, i'd like to buy Avid Media Composer video editing program please" - the usual reponse from most are "we accept cash and credit card - please give me your address to ship this to".

..... Yeah. Exactly my friend. You wanna buy and reseller wants to sell.

Solopost:

Is this the fault of Avid 'marketing' Uncle Harry?

...Of course it is ! It is also the fault of the reseller who wants to move product so badly they don't really care if the product is the best one to serv the client's needs. The end user must also do their research before buying for sure.

 Mark:

Glad to hear you're happy with MC. If you haven't already when you have some time, take a slow tour through your user settings. Make sure you're looking at "all settings". There are customizing options and functionality that go far beyond AXP.

Laptopeditor:

Huh ? Well this is interesting. Do tell, please. I think I missed something big time.

Just couple of tweaks. You can drag video and audio together. You can also move them vertically.

There was a video posted here prior to the release of MC3, showing Avid demoing it (I think it was Alpha Dogs hosting the event). I will try to search for it.

 Here is that video.

"This is a contradiction. A professional consumer ?"

True - but that is why I put it in the context of Avid... and not, say, a car or a pen. You are the one who brought up the prosumer/consumer - if you could offer another explanation, I would love to hear it.

Just an afterthought - prosumer.... isn't that short for PROfessional conSUMER?

"But XDV & Xpro were sure marketed as low end, affordable prosumer-consumer editing solutions in freakin Montreal my friend."

Very simple question - as you asked if I was joking - where?

"In fact, XDV has always been considered a consumer grade editor up here in our market."

I cannot ask the question I was going to without the answer to the above.

"The only reason we went for Xpress Pro (Not XDV) was because it was presented to us as an affordable desktop editing solution for digi-independent film makers and not as a turnkey MCA solution."

I guess Uncle Harry is a digi-independent film maker. You just made a solid contradiction to your own comments - first you say it was marketed to everyone (seeing as everyone is a consumer), but now you say "it was presented..." - it was either one or the other.

"We are low rent wannabees at the outer fringes of the industry serving digi-underground film makers and we had just lost a $35,000.00 DPS system..."

Hey, my neighbour who wants to edit their holiday video to Disney has one of them. Sorry, my mistake.. well you do try to bundle up digi-indepenent (in your own argument) with an everyday consumer.

"Once we got hold of AXP we found out it was neither a consumer grade application because there was no Drag & Drop editing, nor was it a real professional solution as far as we are concerned because it never functioned properly with HDV projects"

It is not a consumer grade application (never has been) and it has been said before, I will say repeat it here - call it not professional, I guess I will continue editing [insert style of projects here] with broadcast quality on my.. hmm, what do you call an application that is neither consumer or professional...

In regards to HDV - no argument, but that is far from disregarding the application as professional.

"what do you think Avid Free DV was supposed to accomplish ?"

To allow those, before they sunk their money into a professional application, to try it out first and see if they liked it. Again, you have to know about Avid first and you had to seek them out to get it. Once they tried it, and hopefully liked it, they would buy it.

"What sort of editor do you think instantly gravitated to that application ?"

Video/Film students, other editors or those looking to edit. That way, they would not have to spend $1,400 on something they found out they actually needed to learn about first.

"What was the expectation which was created with Avid Free DV ?"

See, "what do you think Avid Free DV was supposed to accomplish ?"

"Uncle Harry went for Avid because Avid made XDV and AXP and it was cheap enough for the consumer Uncle to go for it."

Consumer pricing does not mean Avid marketed to the consumer. It means Avid made their application available to newer, incoming editors. Hey, would you recommend FCP to the consumer (without them having any knowledge of FCP) to edit home videos?

"Uncle Harry doesn't know how to use it, but he can afford it. Uncle Harry buys it, then complains when he gets it and shouts at Avid. Why doesn't it work on my PC like Adobe Premiere ? ! Blah ! Blah ! Blah !"

Just because some folks can buy a helicopter, does that entitle them to complain because they can't fly it? Hey, this is not as easy as driving my car.

"It is also the fault of the reseller who wants to move product so badly they don't really care if the product is the best one to serv the client's needs."

I guess Avid have to death-grip their resellers more then. Who's job is it to protect the buyer? 
In law it's the buyers responsibilty on what they buy.. hey, I can buy a gun.. all I have to do is get a licence (the states position is to make sure I have no criminal past in order to get one) - it's not the gun shops responsibility to make the gun easier to use. Nor is it the gun manufacturers responsibility. Do I know how to use it, proficiently?
As a consumer I know what a gun is... does that mean I have the skills to use it? But shall complain to the gun company when I take off a toe due to my mis-handling? Stupidity is not excused... it's your right.

"The end user must also do their research before buying for sure."

When they don't they get to complain, right? It is their right, but it does not make them right.

 A smart consumer, professional or amateur, is an educated consumer. I would never buy any system for myself or any party I represent without thoroughly doing my homework on the product. Does it meet my needs? How does it compare feature for feature with the competition? Is it enough enhancement to my company's marketability to allow me to amortize my investment over a reasonable period of time? And what can I realistically afford or get financing for?

Kent's right on the money. It's the buyer's responsibility all the way...always has been all the way back to the ancients...caveat emptor.

Laptopeditor:

Once we got hold of AXP we found out it was neither a consumer grade application because there was no Drag & Drop editing, nor was it a real professional solution as far as we are concerned because it never functioned properly with HDV projects (The bane of our existence).

HDV is not considered to be a professional format.  Does that mean that it's not used by professionals.. of course not.  MiniDV is not a professional format either.

Having Drag and Drop functionality does not make an editing app professional, consumer or whatever.  Things like frame accuracy, reliability, effecient workflow and handling of media are generally the merits which warrant whether an app is pro or amateur. 

I don't really understand the desire to "dumb down" the Avid editing experience in order to reach out to the "uncle Harry's" of the world.  As has been stated, if Uncle Harry wants glorified PowerPoint-esque video to show family and friends then there are many options available in the sub $200 range. 

I also hate the word "prosumer"... a Prosumer to me, is some jerk who has a bunch of money to buy near professional level tools, but does sub-pro level work and undercuts the market.  Everytime I see an ad seeking a wedding videographer for "this Saturday...  $200 compensation (plus food and drink)", I can't help but think that the "prosumer" has led us to a marketplace where the clients devalue the role of the professional video person. 

I also hate the word "preditor"....

 

 

I'm going to have to agree with solopost's definitions here.  I'm not an Uncle Harry (although some of you may perceive me as such ). Perhaps my own story here will give you a sense where this "prosumer" came from:

 

I started on XDV because someone familiar with the industry recommended it as a valuable tool to learn.  XDV was my first true editing application (following experimentation with Windows Movie Maker...ha).  I learned the concepts of roller trimming, three-point editing, and all the other basics by teaching myself in practice and the training DVD included with XDV at the time.  XDV was rock-solid even on my uncertified system, and I spent a significant amount of time on these forums when they were the "wild west". You can still find my now archaic DVD tutorial in a sticky on one of these threads.

I spent a couple years on XDV before I used either of the other "big three" (FCP, PPro). Even today I consider myself an "Avid native" because I learned all my concepts in the Avid toolset and I work best there.  When XDV hit its unannounced end-of-life after the Pinnacle merger, I did the upgrade to AXP and started coming upon compatibility issues (processor related: SSE extensions in that case).  Fortunately, I still had a (different) system that would run it. Today, after a complete system rebuild, I have a processor that'll run Avid, just not a video card (hence my frustration). 

In a sense, with me Avid did their job well by grabbing me on the low end and moving me up the chain.  Unfortunately, the lower end of the chain has now been cut, leaving me below the bar set for Media Composer. 

I'm not an Uncle Harry, but I'm not a true professional.  I like real glass on my cameras (both still and video) and real editing systems (both still and video) to go with it.  But that doesn't mean I have piles of money to sink into everything, because I don't make piles of money off of them.

Oh, and Kenton:  I don't often do projects for people out in the market so don't worry about me undercutting the market.

Solopost:

You are the one who brought up the prosumer/consumer - if you could offer another explanation, I would love to hear it.

 ....I will define by listing user examples....

1. Prosumer= A Wedding Videographer, for example. These folks do not work in broadcast, but they do receive compensation for their work just like those in broadcast.

2. Consumer=  A hobbiest or video editing enthusiast who edits video for fun instead of profit.

Perhaps this is now more clearly defined for you ?

Solopost:

Very simple question - as you asked if I was joking - where?

...Argumentative. I was being visicious here.

Solopost:

I guess Uncle Harry is a digi-independent film maker. You just made a solid contradiction to your own comments

...Oh yeah. Where ? Show me where I wrote that please-Your interpretation - Non-extant in the text. One is one, the other is the other. One is the difference between consumer and me.

Solopost:

well you do try to bundle up digi-indepenent (in your own argument) with an everyday consumer.

 ...No I don't. You do.

Solopost:

with broadcast quality on my.. hmm, what do you call an application that is neither consumer or professional...

...Avid Xpress Pro. What do you call one ?

Solopost:

"what do you think Avid Free DV was supposed to accomplish ?"

To allow those, before they sunk their money into a professional application, to try it out first and see if they liked it. Again, you have to know about Avid first and you had to seek them out to get it. Once they tried it, and hopefully liked it, they would buy it.

"What sort of editor do you think instantly gravitated to that application ?"

Video/Film students, other editors or those looking to edit. That way, they would not have to spend $1,400 on something they found out they actually needed to learn about first.

...No. Man, see - you don't see it for what it is. This was supposed to be what was to happen, but in reality it was consumers who went for it big time because it was FREE. Expectations were created (Rightly or wrongly) that XDV & AXP would behave just like Avid free DV.

Solopost:

In regards to HDV - no argument, but that is far from disregarding the application as professional.

...Not in our opinion.

Solopost:

Consumer pricing does not mean Avid marketed to the consumer. It means Avid made their application available to newer, incoming editors. Hey, would you recommend FCP to the consumer (without them having any knowledge of FCP) to edit home videos?

....Isn't that a little like saying cars aren't marketed to drivers ?

Solopost:

I guess Avid have to death-grip their resellers more then.

...Yup.

Solopost:

Who's job is it to protect the buyer? 

....Uh, this isn't really the point is it ? Marketing is about creating certain expectations and attracting the buyer. If a company creates expectations which cannot be met, then the shouting starts. If a company promises ease of use and the product is too difficult to use, then user frustration becomes inevitable. We'll never forget the frustration we experienced on a grand scale of editing entire customer projects in HDV and being totally unable to get those projects out of the editor because the HDV transcode to DNxHD simply would not allow us to export out to Squeeze or Avid DVD as the manual says it should ! This function works perfectly in MC. This function NEVER worked in AXP in ANY version of the software we ever used starting from 5.6.0 up to 5.7.7. Yet, we were told by Avid and our reseller that AXP was fully functional with HDV projects. Well, this is all in the past now and we are happy with MC.

 

 

 

Here we go again I'm getting dizzy

 

Kenton.VanNatten:

Having Drag and Drop functionality does not make an editing app professional, consumer or whatever. 

 ...I never claimed that it did man ! I was only suggesting it could be added as a simple button in the user interface to suit those lower end prosumer and consumer users who maybe do not need time code or film match back (Wedding videographers) a quick cut way to go.

Kenton.VanNatten:

I don't really understand the desire to "dumb down" the Avid editing experience in order to reach out to the "uncle Harry's" of the world.

....I'm not suggesting for one minute that we dumb down anything ! Geeze Louise ! It was just a freggin suggestion to add a user interface button. This doesn't take away from anything that MC is.

Kenton.VanNatten:

also hate the word "prosumer"... a Prosumer to me, is some jerk who has a bunch of money to buy near professional level tools, but does sub-pro level work and undercuts the market. 

....You're absolutely right. We have to work with many of those.

Kenton.VanNatten:

I can't help but think that the "prosumer" has led us to a marketplace where the clients devalue the role of the professional video person. 

I also hate the word "preditor"....

...In our local Montreal market. Most of the professional post houses went away because so many clients and companies who used to come to us for professional video post, have now purchased their own systems and pay an employee to do all their work in house.

 

I

Laptopeditor:

...In our local Montreal market. Most of the professional post houses went away because so many clients and companies who used to come to us for professional video post, have now purchased their own systems and pay an employee to do all their work in house.

 

 

 

Aren’t they called editors?

 

 

 

"Perhaps this is now more clearly defined for you ?"

I'll take that.

"A hobbyiest or video editing enthusiast who edits video for fun instead of profit."

If editing for fun, why spend over $1,000 for a product you have no knowledge of? Afterwhich complain to the company who made it that it's not simple enough?

"...Argumentative. I was being visicious here. "

Even though your prime argument is the marketing of the product - and you were quite adamant of it being marketed in such places Uncle Harry would often go - now you take a dead stop making light of it. Good point made.

"This was supposed to be what was to happen, but in reality it was consumers who went for it big time because it was FREE."

Again, Avid's fault? They never asked the consumer to 'come and get it'. They never marketed to them either. Avid aimed for their market of editors/future editors and, inadverently, another market heared about it and decided to buy.

"Isn't that a little like saying cars aren't marketed to drivers ?"

No - cars are marketed to those educated to drive. It just so happens that most of the planet has the want to drive and, before they are actually allowed to legally drive, must learn to drive. Does that qualify them to drive every vehicle? No.

Hey, did you know I can buy a semi-articulated truck. I can drive a car, why is driving a truck so difficult? Guess I should complain to MACK, right?

"[insert entire last paragraph here]"

Did you just dismiss your own stance? You are blaming the buyers ineptitude to research their product on Avid for marketing to them - when Avid never marketed to the consumer level.

"I was only suggesting it could be added as a simple button in the user interface to suit those lower end prosumer and consumer users who maybe do not need time code or film match back (Wedding videographers) a quick cut way to go."

Again... if your perspective of Avid is that it is for "lower end prosumer and consumer users".. then you are all good to have that. But that's your perspective - I think you are going to hit a losing argument if you point is that Avid marketed to the hobbyist or enthusiast. Yes, they lowered their pricing, but this was to open their application to future editors, not Uncle Harry. If the consumer, inadvertently saw this, thought 'i'll buy that' and found out it was difficult to use - that's their own fault.. not Avid.