Latest post Mon, Jan 31 2011 9:16 AM by Roody. 23 replies.
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  • Tue, Jun 3 2008 4:35 PM

    Sony Z7 1080/25P HDV format - Native progressive editing?

    I've got some footage from the new Sony Z7E camera which shoots a progressive flavour of Sony's 1080 HDV.  1080/25P HDV isn't listed as a supported format (and there is no project setting for it in MC), and although the footage imports ok into a 1080i HDV project, Avid seems to interpret the material as interlaced (If I bring the footage into a regular, non-HDV 1080/25P project a warning dialog appears about importing interlaced material into a progressive project.)

    Does anyone know how Avid is dealing with this material, and is it possible to edit the progressive footage in a progressive project?  I imagine the workflow will be similar to working with progressive HDV material from the older Sony V1, if anyone has any experience of working with that..?

    MC V3.0 on Mac Pro 2 x 2.8 Quad Core / NVidia 8800GT / 8GB RAM / OSX 10.5.2 / QT 6.4.5 [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Jun 3 2009 11:56 AM In reply to

    • Tazly
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    Re: Sony Z7 1080/25P HDV format - Native progressive editing?

    This might sound like a daft question but did you record progressive? The reason I’m asking is the Z7 has a mode were the camera shoots progressive but then splits the picture up to record interlaced. That could be why the software is telling you it’s interlaced? Failing that you should be able to use HDV in a standard HD project but if you are having problems it might be a good idea to transcode your HDV into the Avid HD codex. This should speed up your system and allow you to add graphics.

     

    But let us know how you go on because I too have a Z7 and I’m keen to start filming in HD (although I need to upgrade my mac to cope) but maybe you could answer a couple of questions for me?

     

    Is there really that much difference in quality difference between 1080i and 1080p? I’ve been told in makes a big difference in NTSC but in PAL it’s far less noticeable, is that true?

     

    Does the Z7’s 1080p shooting mode combined with its 1080i recording offer the best of both worlds?

     

    What would the work flow be going from HDV to a standard DVD? Would it really look that much better than shooting SD in the first place?  

     

    And finally have you tried the smooth slowmo mode? Even in SD it’s awesome.

  • Wed, Jun 3 2009 3:37 PM In reply to

    • Hoh
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    Re: Sony Z7 1080/25P HDV format - Native progressive editing?

    Tazly is correct.  You can either shoot 25P with pulldown over 50i or shoot it true progressive 25P.

    If it is shot with pulldown over 50i you will want to work with it as a 1080i/50 project.

    However, if it is shot True 25P you have two options (as far as I know). 

    1. You can open it up in an HDV 1080i/50 Project and once you put it in the timeline you will see that the video clip is much shorter than the audio clip.  If you apply the TimeWarp:Pulldown Insertion Effect (with Progressive In and Interlaced Out setting) the video and audio will match up and you can edit it that way (the drawback here is you have to edit and deliver interlaced but you still have the progressive feel)

    2. The second option involves upgrading your Media Composer to 3.5 which promises to edit the 25P natively.  The drawback here is you have to pay 299.99USD to get it.

    I have been shooting 24P over 60i and editing 60i because I don't need to edit 24P natively and I am delivering to DVD anyway.

    That is my understanding with my limited knowledge.  I am fairly new to this camera and still figuring things out.  I am working with MC 3.1.3 and that is what has worked for me so far.

    : Media Composer 7.0.2 ∙ Windows 7 ∙ Intel i7-3820 Sandy Bridge-E 3.6GHz ∙ 32GB RAM G.SKILL Z Series DDR3 1600 ∙ NVIDIA Quadro 2000D 310.90 ∙ Quicktime... [view my complete system specs]
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  • Wed, Jun 3 2009 4:22 PM In reply to

    • Tazly
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    Re: Sony Z7 1080/25P HDV format - Native progressive editing?

    Hi Hoh, all of my shoots since buying the Z7 have been standard def DVCAM 50i PAL and if I need to make a DVD I export the edited sequence from the Avid as a DVstream(this seems to work better for me than a QTmovie for some reason), and then I've use iDVD to make the DVD. 

    This works fine but I'm all ways interested in improving the quality so I'm considering shooting my corporate jobs in HDV 1080 (probably shooting 25p but recording 50i) if I do this I'm happy I can editing them OK in Avid in a HDV1080i project, but I'm unsure of the workflow to get back to DVD to keep the quality as high as possible. Any advice would be greatly appriciated. I'm using Xpress pro on a mac but I will be upgrading to MC soon.

  • Wed, Jun 3 2009 4:49 PM In reply to

    • Hoh
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    Re: Sony Z7 1080/25P HDV format - Native progressive editing?

    I don't know if you have Avid DVD, but there is a nice workflow with that program that produces a great looking picture.  Douglas explains it here:

    http://community.avid.com/forums/p/70717/395321.aspx#395321

     

    Otherwise I would probably use QTRef with Squeeze and aim for a CBR of 8mbps.  You should check out Douglas' tips at the top of the Avid Media Composer PC forum page.  Douglas also offers some great advice on which settings to use for the highest quality when making a QTRef file.

    My advice is, if your computer can handle it, you should always shoot HD and downconvert.  The color and detail is so much better.

    : Media Composer 7.0.2 ∙ Windows 7 ∙ Intel i7-3820 Sandy Bridge-E 3.6GHz ∙ 32GB RAM G.SKILL Z Series DDR3 1600 ∙ NVIDIA Quadro 2000D 310.90 ∙ Quicktime... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Jun 3 2009 5:25 PM In reply to

    • Tazly
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    Re: Sony Z7 1080/25P HDV format - Native progressive editing?

    That's great thanks

  • Wed, Mar 24 2010 12:11 AM In reply to

    • worldwiser
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    Re: Sony Z7 1080/25P HDV format - Native progressive editing?

    Hiya,

    Just a little confused with this thread, wondered if someone could distill it for me. I have a Sony Z7E and I shoot PAL 25p in HDV mode (1440 x 1080 pixels). It's definitely progressive footage, not interlaced. My friend is running FCP and it interprets the footage as 1080p 1440x1080.

    So, when running MC4, I've got a 1080p/25 setting but raster dimensions of 1920 x 1080 which I believe is HD. I've tried using this setting, but Avid refuses to import. It's only on a project setting of 1080i/50 (which is incorrect) that I can import. But the footage is recognised as interlaced. Which it patently isn't.

    Advice?

    Cheers people.

     

    Avid MC 6.0 (5.5-6 upgrade); Intel i7 920 4.0Ghz; 12Gb RAM; Win7 64Bit; QT v7.6.4. Nvidia Quadro 4000. Avid runs on the C: drive, projects on D:, media... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Mar 24 2010 10:43 AM In reply to

    • Scooby
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    Re: Sony Z7 1080/25P HDV format - Native progressive editing?

    Hi

    HDV is 1440x1080, it's anamorphic and has less horizontal resolution than full HD (1920x1080) so in MC you can either edit it in a native HDV project or you can transcode it to DNx and edit it in standard HD. This is probably the best option because of the way HDV is compressed it takes quite a bit of processing power to edit with it natively.

    As far as I know Sony don't do progressive HDV, it's always interlaced. What they do on the Z7 is cheat, they get the camera to scan the same frame twice so there's no movement between the odd and even field. This in theory should work really well but whenever I've tried it it always makes any pans or quick movements really jerky. Maybe I need to up the shutter speed or maybe there's something I'm missing but it doesn't work for me.

    Cheers

  • Wed, Mar 24 2010 11:30 AM In reply to

    Re: Sony Z7 1080/25P HDV format - Native progressive editing?

    I copy directly from the Z7's card to MC both 1080 25p and 1080 50i m2t files.

    At an 1080 50i project and I am using the HDV 1080i resolution to edit.

    I can't see any problem.

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  • Wed, Mar 24 2010 10:22 PM In reply to

    • jwrl
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    Re: Sony Z7 1080/25P HDV format - Native progressive editing?

    worldwiser:
    I have a Sony Z7E and I shoot PAL 25p in HDV mode (1440 x 1080 pixels). It's definitely progressive footage, not interlaced.
    Scooby:
    As far as I know Sony don't do progressive HDV, it's always interlaced. What they do on the Z7 is cheat
    Scooby is correct.  That camera strobes the imaging chip at 25 Hz and scans the video out as an interlaced signal.  (By the way it's not PAL HDV.  There's no such thing.  PAL is only a standard definition format).
    worldwiser:
    My friend is running FCP and it interprets the footage as 1080p 1440x1080.
    FCP is hiding the true nature of the signal.  Panasonic tend to describe their version of the same thing as 1080/25p over 50i, which at least leaves you in no doubt as to what you have.

    To expand on Scooby's comments about using DNxHD instead of HDV - you can use either DNxHD or DNxHD TR.  The TR stands for "thin raster" and will preserve your pixel aspect ratio, ie., it will keep the frame size as 1440x1080.  DNxHD is normally a square pixel codec which will convert your frame size to 1920x1080.

    Finally, once you've captured your media as 50i you should be able to change your project format to 25p.  What Avid will then produce will be a true 25p image.

    MC 7.0.4 - Asus P6T Deluxe V2 mobo - Intel i7 920 2.66GHz - Windows 7 Ult64 SP1 - nVidia Quadro FX 1800 - 16 Gbyte low latency DDR3 RAM - Internal 8 Tb... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Mar 25 2010 12:11 PM In reply to

    • worldwiser
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    Re: Sony Z7 1080/25P HDV format - Native progressive editing?

    So much useful information - you guys are great. Thanks so much.

    Avid MC 6.0 (5.5-6 upgrade); Intel i7 920 4.0Ghz; 12Gb RAM; Win7 64Bit; QT v7.6.4. Nvidia Quadro 4000. Avid runs on the C: drive, projects on D:, media... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Jan 28 2011 3:11 PM In reply to

    • Roody
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    Re: Sony Z7 1080/25P HDV format - Native progressive editing?

    Hi All

    Just stumbled across this post and read with interest as it addresses some issues I have experienced with Avid MC5 and Sony Z7's

    I've been shooting in this HDV 25p mode using the z7's for some time and have noticed issues with interlacing within Avid. Mainly upon export of video files I see interlacing on fades to and from black/white.. and also certain timewarp effects.. but not ALL the time.. which is slightly confusing...

    Anyway... also this 'jerky' left to right movement issue with the Z7's... I am about to do some tests with upping the shutter speed to see if this helped the problem... but then I stumbled across this article.

    Having read it... lol.. whats the upshot!?!... Is it basically that the Z7's progressive mode is infact not progressive at all?... added together with this jerky left to right pan issue... added with the fact Avid does not interpret the 25p footage AS progressive but only as HDV 50i interlaced... is it worth it?... using it at all i mean!...

    I'm struggling to see the benefits of this Z7s 25p 'progressive' mode over the regular 50i mode?...

    Any further thoughts on this?... someone mentioned the words "its a cheat" haha... true?....

     

    Roody

     

    Cam's: Sony Z7's & S270's - MC5.0.3.7r - HPZ800(6 Core) - Intel Xenon X5660(2.8GHz) - Windows 7 Pro (64) - 12GB RAM - Nvidia Quadro5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Jan 28 2011 3:33 PM In reply to

    Re: Sony Z7 1080/25P HDV format - Native progressive editing?

    This jerky movement is the p.

    If you are seeing interlace on monitors do not worry.

    It will stay only there.

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  • Fri, Jan 28 2011 3:43 PM In reply to

    • Roody
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    Re: Sony Z7 1080/25P HDV format - Native progressive editing?

    Hi

    So this jerkiness is just a trait of the 25p mode... So I guess this falls into the "I like it.. I dont' like" catagory... personal preference I suppose?...

    Is this 'jerky' characteristic also visible on say a full HD 1920X1080 25p progressive piece of video?... or just on this HDV equivilent?...

    As for the interlacing issue... It does not appear in Avid monitors ofcourse... It is visiible when viewed in 3rd party players suck as adobe media and windows media players... just odd that this interlace appears only on fade ups and fade outs... and not anywhere else within the footage...

    Anyway... thanks for the reply.

    R.

    Cam's: Sony Z7's & S270's - MC5.0.3.7r - HPZ800(6 Core) - Intel Xenon X5660(2.8GHz) - Windows 7 Pro (64) - 12GB RAM - Nvidia Quadro5000 [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Jan 28 2011 4:03 PM In reply to

    Re: Sony Z7 1080/25P HDV format - Native progressive editing?

    Ζ7 is HDV as you know.

    Do you capture/import at an HDV project?

    Because if you are capturing to another raster, things could be weird.

    Desktop
    Zalman 600W/Asus P8Z68 Deluxe(Gen3)/i7 2600K@4.5/Corsair 16G DDR3/PNY Quadro 2000D(320.78)/Samsung 850 Pro SSD(OS)/ 2x2TB WD RE4@RAID 0/LG BH16NS40/W7 Pro 64bit/Media Composer Software 8.2 with Symphony Option/Matrox MXO2 Mini/2xHP 22'' Monitors/M-Audio AV30 Speakers.

     

    Larry as long as I live I will remember you.

     

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