1) is it true that while my XPRO can import native DVCPROHD, this video will actually get degraded as I put color effects and titles etc on top abd thus when I output, the video will not be "native" any more but will be have new levels of compression?

2) Is it true that this degradation and extra compression would not happen, or at least happen less if I were editing the same thing on a NITRIS (or any system able to do full uncompressed video) and then outputting to HDCAM SR? 

3) If I want to edit in an uncompressed space for online, is it true that I can do this on FCP? (or is my editor wrong) and if I want to do it on AVID, what is the lowest cost system that can do it?

My goal is to be able to ingest our DVCPRO HD --but-- then NOT increase compression with the addition of effects etc.

This is the solution you should look into.

 Price for Media Composer DX Nitris as announced at a recent Washington Avid Users Group Meeting:  $14,995.00

it says MC SOFT can handle 10 but 1:1 uncompressed. Anyone know how to get that format into the AVID without a box?

 Sorry, I posted the wrong link. Try this one.

 thanks

but i see mc soft can techincally do 1:1 10 bit. BUt how do I get the footage into MC SOFT? are drives the only way? ugh...  Can the upcoming HD MOJO DX do it via SDI HD? I gather NITRIS DX can

Guywithcat:

 Can the upcoming HD MOJO DX do it via SDI HD? I gather NITRIS DX can

If I remember right, the answer is "yes" to both. However, in Mojo DX land, there are no analog ins or outs. I'll be attending an Avid demo of all of these products here in DC on June 4th, where I can get hands on with it...I'll have a better idea then and will report back.

THANKS! Am I correct about my assumptions about what happens in XPRO now?

 Sorry, my experience with XPRO and DVCPROHD is virtually non-existent, so I can't give you an answer regarding your degredation issue, although I think I remember another poster saying this problem was limited to HDV...

I shot a 720p project on DVCPROHD last semester. I did all the effects and color correction on my own Xpress Pro system with Avid FX, and the final HD output looked AMAZING. I did not notice any additional compression. My opinion: even if there is any additional degradation after effects and title work, it was minimal enough that it wasn't noticeable at all.

Hope this helps!

-Jeff

Guywithcat:

1) is it true that while my XPRO can import native DVCPROHD, this video will actually get degraded as I put color effects and titles etc on top abd thus when I output, the video will not be "native" any more but will be have new levels of compression?

Yes there is degredation.Taking a material (compressed or uncompressed) and creating a compressed version of it (rendering to DVC PRo HD in your case) is a digital 'generational hit' in terms of quality. In fact, even 1:1 4:2:2 rendering/capture is technically not a lossless process. But for all intent and purpose, 1:1 @ 4:2:2 is considered mastering quality. It is visually undistinguishable.

Guywithcat:

2) Is it true that this degradation and extra compression would not happen, or at least happen less if I were editing the same thing on a NITRIS (or any system able to do full uncompressed video) and then outputting to HDCAM SR? 

Simply put if you use a software and hardware that is capable of 1:1 (uncompressed) at 4:2:2 sampling, the degredation is considered negligible. Nitris, Nitris DX and Mojo DX are all capable of uncompressed SD or HD.

HDCAM SR is actually a compressed format even at 4:4:4 mode. But it is considered the best in terms of quality for broadcast tape format.

Guywithcat:

3) If I want to edit in an uncompressed space for online, is it true that I can do this on FCP? (or is my editor wrong) and if I want to do it on AVID, what is the lowest cost system that can do it?

MC v3 + Mojo DX would allow uncompressed SD and HD.

Guywithcat:

My goal is to be able to ingest our DVCPRO HD --but-- then NOT increase compression with the addition of effects etc.

Firewire ingest. Set media creation to 1:1 10 bit uncompressed (you would need a drive that can handle 70 MB/s for 720/60p or about 140 MB/s for 1080/59.94i)

Thanks Dom.

Is there an XPRO setting so I can I ingest 10 bit/1:1/4:4:4 elsewhere, bring the drives (assuming they are fast enough) back to our edit, edit in house at this nearly uncompressed level if and then output elsewhere? My editor says XPRO cannot do this and I dont see a setting.

Same question for MCSOFT?

The short version is, I can go right next door to someone else's huge avid suite and easily bring my drives there to get ANYthing on my drives or output. But I would like to avoid buying too much new hardware at this point. That said, we are shooting to HDCAM (f23) and outputting to HDCAM SR. I am trying to learn the most affordable way to do this with the least amount of compression. In a perfect world, we would (fingers crossed) be able to pull this off with our current xpro. Next perfect world would be MCSOFT only (current version ok?), and last resort, we would buy the new mojo DX or nitris. I see "native" all over the place with XPRO and MCSOFT but there is always some kind of "story" and even after 10 years on AVID, with so much knowlege about the systems, I still (respectfully) feel like I just need to ask some of the simplest questions out here since the brochure's and manual's are just ....

Also, we have two GSPEED es enclosures on esata, RAID 5 into on Gspeed card. 4tb and 3tb for a total of 7tb but more like 5tb total after RAID striping. Do you suspect this is fast enough?

Also have one Dulce, 4tb encl RAID 5, with 3tb usable due to striping... same question?

Sorry to ask so many! thanks!

Guywithcat:

Is there an XPRO setting so I can I ingest 10 bit/1:1/4:4:4 elsewhere, bring the drives (assuming they are fast enough) back to our edit, edit in house at this nearly uncompressed level if and then output elsewhere? My editor says XPRO cannot do this and I dont see a setting.

No you cannot for XPro or MC Soft. They are incapable of handling 4:4:4 media.

For you the best route in my opinion is just offline in SD with your current configuration. This means no additional cost. Then online using Nitris DS that is capable of 4:4:4. If you want to offline in HD, you can go with DX or Adrenaline and use DNxHD compression.

The question is do you really need to output 4:4:4? Is this for TV or film print? For TV, HDCAM SR 4:2:2 is the standard delivery format. For film festivals - that varies. It can be anywhere from DV to HDCAM SR 4:2:2.. Many do not accept 4:4:4 because of hte complexity of handling it (that feature is an OPTION in the Sony SRW-5500 deck plus many display format do not accept 4:4:4 signal).

It is however the ideal format if you are expecting to print it to film.

Also remember that unless you get the F23 camera configure for 4:4:4 (you need to rent the SRW1 with it), it is by default recording at compressed 4:2:2. In that case you may see little or no benefit from editing in 4:4:4. And BTW HDCAM F23 is NOT DVC PRO HD. No firewire in that baby. You will need to rent the SRW-5500 (with or without the 4:4:4 optional board).

I would really reconsider about the whole 4:4:4 workflow. You are adding tens of thousands of dollars to your post budget. Just renting the SRW-5500 for one day is not cheap.

Regarding your drive, you will need to push about 235+ MB/s to play one stream of 4:4:4 at 1080p @ 24fps. I suspect those can probable push 1 stream of 1080p/4:4:4

The only thing which is cheap in uncompressed HD is software and i/o card because this is technical the simplest format, every 1 or 0 is there.

The problem is the huge mass of data You have to handle. 1 hour uncompressed 1080p24 requieres 333GB and You must have disks which can play back the data in real time. You need about 4-5 disks for one stream. Finding cheap storage solutions for this is not easy.

In reality, most projects use compression. Avid have their DNxHD codec which I think is good. The compressed HD take the same space as uncompressed SD. In colaborated workflows, e.g. in broadcasting they have cental storage of video and therefore, they must compress the video. Compressed HD is not a poor mans solution, it is part of everyday HD-work.

I think You will consider ingest the original DVCPRO HD files to Your harddisks. Use DNxHD for rendering, and if You is not satisfied with the result, do a final export, with rendering set to uncompressed and, to a QT file with uncompressed HD. Go with this file to a posthouse which have the equipment to read Your QT-file to their harddisks and output it to tape or what ever You want.

 MCSOFT cannot? I understand and we may just do 4:2:2... I am trying to plan for the next level though which is part of why I ask... can MCSOFT and SXPRO do 4:2:2? And is there an actual software change which allows for 4:4:4 in MOJODX or NITRISDX? Or does that change just come from having the new hardware? We can offline in SD, againt my religion.

:)