Hello,

I hope this letter finds everyone well.  I shot a film on the HVX200.  I shot it at 1080i/24p and recorded on a FIRESTORE FS100.  The project came into my avid system at 1080i/29.97.   The project looked fine, no weird judders or motion problems while editing on my computer screen.

I then exported the edited tilm to a  QUICKTIME (DXnHD) file for an output that was then taken to  a professional dubbing house to HDCAM tape output.  When the file was brought in to FINAL CUT pro (at the dubbing house), it looked perfectly fine on the computer.  Just like it did in AVID.  When we are trying to lay down the movie to tape, there is a strong judder when the actors move.  It does not appear on the computer monitor on playback, but it does appear on the actual HD monitor as it will on HDCAM tape. 

What are we doing wrong?  Why does it look okay on the computer monitors? but not on the actual tape or HD monitors?  When initially exporting this to a quicktime file, should i change the frame rate to 23.97?  Should I have exported it at 23.97 instead of 29.97 even though i edited at 29.97?

anyone ever have this issue?

Zack

 29,97 would have redudant frames in it since the original material is 23.97... what framerate are you laying off to tape? 24/23.97PsF? cause I'm thinking that would be the problem. HDCAM runs native (interlaced) frame rates (so 24 frames is actually 48 interlaced frames on HDCAM) whereas DVCPro HD does not run at native rates in 1080p. When you shoot 1080/24p on DVCPro HD, you're actually getting 60i (30p).

It could also be (if FC is pulling out the reduandant frames) that the HDCAM deck is set in 24PsF and not 23.97, meaning you're out by .03 frames per second.

 Interesting, Yeah i am actually laying off to 29.97 on tape and the film was originally (as you stated) DVCPRO HD. (exactly actually 30p) this is why i don't understand why there is any type of judder.  Could it be a Final Cut Pro output issue? Again, why would it look clean on the computer monitor?

Zack

zacksnygg:

 Interesting, Yeah i am actually laying off to 29.97 on tape and the film was originally (as you stated) DVCPRO HD. (exactly actually 30p) this is why i don't understand why there is any type of judder.  Could it be a Final Cut Pro output issue? Again, why would it look clean on the computer monitor?

Zack

 hmm.... I don't know. Could you try a 23.97p render and put that to tape and see what happens? It maybe the redundant frames causing the problem. You'd have to get rid of the 6 duplicate frames some how though.

A few things I just want to say as the 24 v 30 v 23.9 v 29.97 is often NOT the problem with this issue.

For starters, you say you shot 1080/24 and it came into AVID  as 1080/29.97. Unless I have forgotten what I know about the panasonic, you actually shot at 1080/23.97p (EVEN THOUGH IT SAYS 24) and it was actually converted on the spot and saved to your FireStore as 1080/29.97i (EVEN THOUGH IT SAYS 30) ---> NOTE: that camera only saves 1080 HD as 29.97i no matter what capture is. Here is another way to look at it:

When you shoot HD on that camera with 1080 --things are different for all other settings such as 720 or 480--  but for 1080 there are a few things to know

1) 24 always means 23.98 and it never means 24

2) 30 always means 29.97 and it never means 30

3) 60 always means 29.94 and never means 60

4) no matter WHAT you set to capture - it will always be PUT ON THE FireStore as 1080/ 29.97/interlace

Again it captures one thing, BUT it converts and saves another. it does this to make editing easier for all of is.

This means you have literally the EXACT tape format that HDCAM uses on firestore already. AND you have it in your AVID project. It is 1080,it is 29.97 and it is interlace. I assure you, unless there is a step you did not mention, that your AVID project is HDCAM perfect!

At this point in the process, you dont need to worry about framerates of interlace. The camera and AVDI did that for you.

Now, you say you have a stutter on your HDCAM. This leads me to believe your output settings to QT could be off. Or your QT is right but your convert to HDCAM is off. Or whoever is running final cut is doing it wrong. )Keep in mind most FC system have a FW output so I am interested to know how they are getting it from FC to the HDCAM.)

HDCAM does have a traditional standard format of 29.97 / 1080/ i (the exact format of your project) BUT BUT the mid to high end decks have about a zillion options for this. They can be tweaked in little ways you woulld never know. So make sure the HDCAM deck is 1080i/29.97. The very high end decks can even record full progressive etc. etc... make sure about this. 

I just want to drive the same point home one more time - you do not need to worry about 24 or 23 or 30 or 29 or dropping frames or re-ingesting. Thats just not the issue if you did it the way you say. When you export your file make sure it is interlace and 29.97 OR depending on the software you use it could say "30i dropframe" which is the same. If you see the word progressive RUN. Do you not set anything progressive.

I suspect the problem is the output from FC by the way...

Guywithcat:

Again it captures one thing, BUT it converts and saves another. it does this to make editing easier for all of is.

The reason it lays the 24p signal into a 60i (30p) signal is because DVCPro HD can't record 24p natively... it has nothing to do with the editing. It simply comes down to the DVCProHD codec not doing 1080/24p natively. 480 does the samething because there was never a codec invented that did 24p natively in 480 (ntsc) or 576 (pal). So in order to get the 24p material out of the 30p signal you have to remove those 6 redundant frames if you want to master in 24p or 23.97... You might be able to leave them if you're going to a 30p or 29.97 master.

For the Original Poster, here's some more info on HDCAM's Progressive Segmented Frames:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_segmented_Frame

You couldn't master to HDCAM SR? It doesn't have to deal with PsF format.

 GUYWITHCAT and everyone else,

Your posts was extremely helpful.  I totally agree.  I think that this is a problem with FCP output or the deck settings going to tape.  But I agree there should be no change in the frame rate.  The setting on both AVID and FCP is orrect 1080i/29.97 on both systems.  Maybe the deck was set at 1080p? etc.  Buuuuuuuuut possibly a weird issue with the Quicktime file.

What also do folks recommend for delivering QUICKTIME from AVID into FCP.  For this particular project i delivered a DVCPRO HD QUICKTIME file (exported as same as source) and a UNCOMPRESSED Quicktime file (exported as NONE with 29.97 as frame rate).   When going to FCP, the Dub house editor requested "8 bit 1920x1080" (that is the settings that FCP has for output). So we wouldn't have to go the extra step in rendering my quicktime file which i supplied from my AVID exports.   Both files had to be rendered in FCP.  Even though the UNCOMPRESSED file showed up in FCP as "grey". 

Would the DNXHD quicktime file be a "8 bit 1920x1080" file.  So i wouldn't have to go through a rendering process in FCP?   Has anyone gone from AVID to FCP in HD.  What did they find where the best EXPORT settings from AVID going to FCP. Maybe the issue had something to do with that?