Hi all,

Offline spot editor here.  I have always worked from SD dailies for either SD finish and or HD/SD finish in Flame or Smoke or the like.  Always involves a telecine session.  With the advent of the HD video camera that creates files my company and I are beginning to see more medium range jobs come our way where they shoot with HD Video/Files as apposed to on film.

I’ve had a couple jobs come up recently where the “DP” wants to give me his files straight from the HD video camera. I am not comfortable with this because they are HD Native files 23.98 that need to be converted for me to work with in SD 29.97, and subsequently conformed in Flame anyway. I asked them to get the files to an HD master (HDSR) and they were pretty rude and told me to get with the times. I had to demand that they give the footage onto an HD master.

Am I wrong to ask for a Master format over media files? It is in the best interest of my work flow as well protecting my client as they undoubtedly will revisit the footage at a later date. And tracking down a master from storage is much more realistic than tracking down media files. Are these guys just trying to do less in the end and put it on the editor? I’m not cool with that personally. If they shot on film, they need to get the film developed and create dailies for me. Why the big deal about making me an HD tape?

Am I being stubborn?  Maybe. But I know what I feel more comfortable working on and what best protects my clients. After the dust settles on this current job, I'll start doing more test with the files and such to see if it is even right for us.

 No, personally I don't think you're being unreasonable at all. Who knows what file formats are still going to be viable 10, 20, 50 years from now? To say nothing about how easily a computer file can get corrupted or become unusable for a multitude of other reasons. If you have a piece of physical media that you can hold in your hand and put on a shelf, YOU KNOW that if the playback equipment is properly cared for, you have a long term viable product. As a video historian and archivist, I HATE the very thought that we are rapidly approaching a time when there will be NO physical medium of any kind to preserve programming. Posterity is in great danger of losing priceless material to cybernetic oblivion. Keep right on insisting on tape masters. I would.

I don't think it's an unreasonable request by you per se. However, it might be interesting to do some research and testing to see how easy or complicated it is to handle an HD workflow. If they shoot 23.976 HD, it should be easy for you to offline in 23.976 (HD) as well. There's even DNxHD36 that will give you the option to offline in HD, at reasonable bandwith (comparable to 3:1 or DV).

And even more so, after testing you might draw the conclusion that it is a better workflow (for you or anybody else involved) to create HD tape dubs from the files. Then you have all the more reason to explain your clients (and their DP's): we did elaborate testing and concluded that a proper workflow involves the creation of tape dubs.

I've been investigating the P2 stuff recently (because of an upcoming gig), and it seems fairly doable. However, there is a serious storage issue. This is a project that will be in in production for months, so they back up their P2 mediafiles two or three times from the cards onto large 1TB quad interface drives and on a SATA RAID box. The thing is that none of this is actually a manageable archival medium, of course, so it becomes more an issue of creating many redundant copies in the hope that at least one of the copies will survive.

This was going to be our next step after the job is over. Maybe there is a way that works for us all. My question to many of you who have worked this way is: A. how long does it take to transcode the native files from the camera to an Avid SD resolution if possible. What do you do with the media after the project is done? How much disc drive space do you have on hand to work in HD? Do you purchase external drives copy the files and send it to the client when finished? I deal with ad agencies. They are very accustomed to working with film and tape. Files is new to them as well. I don't think I should have to be their vault for media. They often revisit footage at later dates to make revisions. I'm more worried about the storage and traceability of the files. Plus I have always worked in the offline world, Working in HD is overkill for me. Doing Avid out to master as apposed to going to online. Any thoughts on this stuff would be very helpful.

kellyv:

Working in HD is overkill for me.

Not sure if that is true when working with supplied mediafiles. It might just be faster and easier to work with those files in their native form. You can still have the finishing process done elsewhere. The whole offline/online paradigm is shifting anyway.

"The whole offline/online paradigm is shifting anyway."

No doubt about that on the lower budget stuff. But I prefer to leave it to the experts when the $ is there. Nothing beats a good colorist, flame artist, graphic designer etc.

 

I prefer to leave it to the experts

I agree 1000% with that. Still, the shifting paradigm IMO means that offline editing is no longer restricted to SD. That's "old thinking", in a way. People are having 35mm transferred to HDCAM for offline editing in DNxHD36 or 115. Those projects might eventually be conformed in 3K or 4K, graded by the world most excellent experts. People will be offlining 1080i P2 media, that will eventually be reconformed in hi-end rooms (DS, Quantel, whatever), simply because that is what is available to work with, and that is how workflows get amended. It's pretty unlikely that I actually finish any show that comes along my suites, no matter the format that I do my work in.

I don't think you disagree with me, so I might be preaching to the choir. Forgive me. Also, I don't disagree with you that some important aspects of new workflows are rarely thought through well enough.

 

you are forgiven. just kidding. this is pretty cool stuff you are say actually. something to think about. maybe the offline editor could do the comform of the project since he/she has the final picture already (if video original).  A select film xfer is almost always a part of my workflow. then hand it off to the visfx/colorists/title folks etc.  thanks!

 

Here is a small business perspective.

Let us say that you accept the file based material from the shoot.

First, does you insurance cover you if it is destroyed / lost / corrupted due to some computer / power problem while in your possession?

I will bet your insurance company will have NO idea about this when you call to ask.  And I'll also bet that production insurance does not cover media after the shoot is over.

So, you can ask / demand that you client either sign a form releasing you of all libility if something goes bad - not likely.

Or you could offer to make backups of all shoot material when it arrives.  Either as hard drive copies or some tape based media.  And this could / should be a profit center for you.  But I would make sure there is some document in place with your clients that covers this issue.

Jef (the paranoid editor)

My partner (Exec Producer) and I had this conversation ourselves. We had to search far and wide just to get negative insurance. Many editorial shops don't have this because they can't find it, want to find it, or is willing to pay the $10-15K one time hit per year. I doubt any insurance company would be willing to insure media files. I know I wouldn't.  We are going to research and put together some kind of 'disclaimer/recommendation' sheet to send to our agency clients.  This sheet would possibly say we will need to purchase a drive to store the media and ship to them or their storage facility (usually Filmcore Distribution LA).  Also how we are not responsible for format/codec standard changes or file corruption which could make the files unuseable. I would put in a recomendation that the files be layed out to an HDSR master and work from. This way the production company can't call US out, but will deal with the agency.