Students have never had it so good, the worst part of being a student is it ending!

TCurren:

The problem here, and with several folks posting in this thread, is the assumption that Avid is gouging. Without knowing what it really costs them to make a Mojo DX, you shouldn't make assumptions about their pricing scheme.

That's very true, I have no idea what their costs are.  However, I do see very similar technologies at much lower costs.  From what I'm reading on the spec sheet, MjoDX does not appear to be reinventing the wheel.  If their costs are really that high, they should be looking at their corporate structure for savings.

TCurren:

Would Blackmagic make it a lot cheaper? Yes. Does Blackmagic hold to the level of technical quality that Avid does? Not in my experience. Would Blackmagic answer the phone and solve your problems? Not in my experience. Does Blackmagic have a fraction of the overhead Avid does? No. And I won't even talk about the lousy break out cables that Blackmagic provides to connect to their cards...

I personally haven't mentioned Blackmagic.  BM (nice initials) does not seem to have a very good reputation.  AJA, however, does - even amongst those that are lukewarm on FCP.  Avid must think so too to some extent having AJA supply a major component to their top tier product.  I also hear their support is decent.

TCurren:

Personally I don't feel Avid is gouging anymore. If the Value to cost ratio isn't good for you, move along. But don't assume it is because Avid is screwing you.

 

This sounds a little like "America, Love it or Leave It."  Avid has been kind enough to open this forum up to debate about its products and services.  It's very cool that they are willing to take the criticisms (and occasional praise) publicly.  I'm glad you are happy with the pricing.  But in case you haven't noticed, you can't please all the people all the time.

Here's my agenda for participating in this thread:

1.  I'm always looking to find the balance between cost and value.  My first online setup was a Pinnacle Alladin and UVW decks.  That was alot of power for not much cash - good value.  My first Avid was MSP - not so good.  But Avid redeemed itself with Xpress Meridien w/ 3D.  Avid continues to be the best value for my needs.

2.  Having said that about value, I'm genuinely concerned that non Avid users may not see the value in the new releases.  Some people may like that idea - I don't.  For all the FCP bashing, there are a lot of creative editors using FCP.  I'd love to harness the power of that community with a better product.  

My wife and I are a two person shop - editing & motion graphics.  It's been fun, but we want to expand and move into producing more.  I want to be able to hire young talent with new ideas without having to learn and run an FCP system.

3.  I'm concerned that editing applications are getting the short end of the stick.  I personally don't think FCP will develop much more under Apple the consumer electronics company.  I actually think Adobe has a better chance long term with Premiere.  

I would like Avid to make their software more accessible to more markets.  They may not make as much right away, but that could be made up with a broader user base.

Quick question for you, Terence.  Do you like the idea of more people using Avid?

Respectfully,

Eric

Blitzer:

Do you like the idea of more people using Avid?

Trick question.

Would I like more professional editors using it? Yes.

Would I like to see it commoditized so that everyone can own it like the cracked copy of FCP, making the operator a low valued individual? No!

Would I like to see more Avid users, at the cost of R&D money in Avid's coffers for future development? No!

So far no one has convinced me that Avid dropping their prices further will gain them a larger installed base. And that base would have to increase enough to not only cover the reduced income, but also to cover the massive increase in support calls they would get from folks asking what "trim" means.

Does that answer your question?

TCurren:

Blitzer:

Do you like the idea of more people using Avid?

 

Would I like to see it commoditized so that everyone can own it like the cracked copy of FCP, making the operator a low valued individual? No!

 

Ok, but doesn't the value of the individual lie more with their skill, experiene and what value they can produce with the tool - rather than the availability of the tool?  A crap editor just isn't going to be able to deliver on the same jobs that you deliver.  And without Avid, they will still be able to be editors of some sort, just with FCP, Premier or Canpus or whatever - they may not be as efficient, if Avid would be better for their purposes, but it won't prevent them doing what they want to do or buying a copy of some NLE..  All you get is that these editors are not using Avid, which ultimately can't be good for Avid.

All things being equal, the more Avid editors there are the lower the pay rates will go, labour market forces dictate this.

NICKB:

All things being equal, the more Avid editors there are the lower the pay rates will go, labour market forces dictate this.

Yeah, that holds true for the number of editors.  Editors choosing another platform over Avid won't prevent them being in the market place.

TCurren:

Does that answer your question?

Yes, we feel the same way.  The difference is in the numbers.

What would be the most you would be willing to pay for MC3 w/ Nitris DX?

Now add 30% to that amount.  You'd probably still pay for it, but you wouldn't be as happy.

Now of course some people will say it should be 10% cheaper or 80% cheaper (30% is just my personal feeling).  But the point I'm trying to make is; will Avid have a big enough user base to sustain product development?  I don't know that of course.  But I am worried about the lack of impact that the new releases have had outside the Avid circle.  Time will tell.

TCurren:

but also to cover the massive increase in support calls they would get from folks asking what "trim" means.

5000 new MC users @ $1,000 each for phone support?  I'll take that business and tell them what trim means.  Seriously though, people who use other NLEs aren't all hacks.  They're just...misguided.

Blitzer:

Seriously though, people who use other NLEs aren't all hacks.

I never said "all", but take a look at the FCP, Blackmagic and AJA forums in Creative Cow if you want an idea of what Avid would face.

people who use other NLEs aren't all hacks.

But I'm sure Terry did not imply that. The point is that some folks use Avids because they are professional tools for professional jobs used by professionals. Commoditising MC might mean a bigger user base, but it also implies less or no new development at a professional level, and that means less choice for professionals in the end.

I agree with him.

I feel it is very important for Avid to be competitive, but at the level of distinguishing their products from the competition quality-wise, rather than being everybody's cheap tool. Not everyone needs a forklift, but those who do need forklifts on a daily basis, need a pretty darn good one.

NICKB:

All things being equal, the more Avid editors there are the lower the pay rates will go, labour market forces dictate this.

I could make the obligatory "skill of the editor" comment here, but that's fairly obvious.

I'm a good editor, not a fantastic one.  My business relies on my knowledge of my customer's needs and my ability to problem solve.  Avid makes my life easier, but my clients wouldn't know the difference if I used FCP (except for the disappearing renders bit!)

TCurren:

I never said "all", but take a look at the FCP, Blackmagic and AJA forums in Creative Cow if you want an idea of what Avid would face.

You're very right.  I'm sorry about putting words in your mouth.  

There are a lot of idiotic threads on the Cow, but a lot of that is because of FCP, and not the user. Without its media mangler problems there would be a 50% reduction in threads (and FCP would get a much more serious look by many Avid users.)

Job ter Burg:

Commoditising MC might mean a bigger user base, but it also implies less or no new development at a professional level, and that means less choice for professionals in the end.

I guess the question is at what price point does MC become a commodity?  Hearing people complain about upgrade costs for FCS2 ($450), and knowing that MC3 will still cost $2,500 (a steal IMO) plus hardware (a theft IMO), I think we still have a little buffer left.

The question of increased user base vs. cost of product is one I'm certainly not qualified to answer. But it's fun to talk about.

Blitzer:

Job ter Burg:

Commoditising MC might mean a bigger user base, but it also implies less or no new development at a professional level, and that means less choice for professionals in the end.

 

I guess the question is at what price point does MC become a commodity?  Hearing people complain about upgrade costs for FCS2 ($450), and knowing that MC3 will still cost $2,500 (a steal IMO) plus hardware (a theft IMO), I think we still have a little buffer left.

 

The question of increased user base vs. cost of product is one I'm certainly not qualified to answer. But it's fun to talk about.

Well, as a potential joiner to this user base, I can say in my particular situation if the Mojo-DX or alternate simple Avid I/O board would cost:

1500-1999, I would buy it and MC within the next 10 minutes;

2000-2599, I would most probably buy it and MC within the next week;

2600-3299, I would strongly consider it, still most probably end up getting it and MC within the next few weeks;

Above 4000 and I would find it a lot more difficult to justify to myself at this time.

I'm not saying these are the right prices, but its an indication of one interested user's perspective, who is currently not using Avid.  If third-party I/O were supported, I'd buy MC without a second thought as well btw.  That means I'm willing to pay for MC and basic I/O from 4000 to about 5799.

My speculation (not speculation about Avid's roadmap though..) is that similar pricing would get many other persons not yet within the Avid user-base, but who are serious and/or passionate about editing or production to take a better look next time their attention is brought to Avid (as mine was when I read about the new thinking campaign).  And if the word gets out to some of these users on how stable, work-flow efficient, quick and functional MC3 hopefully turns out to be, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see the number of editors looking and willing to pay that reasonable premium above the competition increase quickly.  And yet at this price it would not be a commodity and would not attract or persuade those who have "plonking" requirements as they most likely can make do perfectly with a software only solution of FCP, Premiere or even more affordable Vegas (which is something like 800 I believe..).

In addition to pricing though, if Avid did take such a route, it would be great to see very clear key messages about the benefit of MC over the competition.  Such that a visitor of the website goes away with up to 3 compelling things that stick strongly to their minds, like it being reliable, allowing very stream lined and time-efficient workflows as well as having a real price-wise viable entry point now.

pedward:

In addition to pricing though, if Avid did take such a route, it would be great to see very clear key messages about the benefit of MC over the competition. 

Which brings us neatly back to where this thread started. Avid marketing hasn't done a very good job.

TCurren:

Which nrings us neatly back to where this thread started. Avid marketing hasn't done a very good job.

I've seen the "New Thinking" banner ads in enough places, but it doesn't seem to grab me.

Maybe they need something a little more aggressive.

"It's one hour before deadline.  Do you know where your media is?  Media Composer does." (accompanied by person starring openmouthed at screen with missing media slug)

"Less rendering means less time for coffee.  Don't worry, he'll get over it."                              (photo of empty coffee shop and sullen looking 20-something server behind counter)

etc.