Avid needs to add surround sound editing capabilities to all of its NLE's. Avid at one point was talking about how you could go to the big screen with even Avid Xpress Pro. The last time I checked every big screen film has surround sound. I've been getting aggrivated with surround sound not being included. Not everyone can afford an Avid DS system, and what makes it worse is that Avid Liquid, which was below and cheaper than Xpress Pro, can edit 5.1 surround sound. I know Liquid was part of Pinnacle, but on the Avid and Digidesign side of the house it seems like surround sound will never come to the independent/small business. On the Avid side you have to get the DS system and on the Pro Tools side you have to get the HD system. Avid really needs to fix this on both sides. Especially when cheaper video NLE's and audio NLE's like Adobe Audition which around $60 more than the cheapest version of Pro Tools has complete surround editing.

Sean D. McLean

       SDM 

M33|STUDIOS

 Sinubis@gmail.com

System Specs: _ Software: Avid Media Composer 2.8.1(software) _ Hardware: HP xw4300 Workstation _ RAM: 5Gb _ OS: Win XP Pro SP2

Sorry for me your post is far to simplistic.

The ability send audio to 6 outputs could be claimed as the ability to do 5.1 the ability to do it with all channels having the correct delays, crossovers etc so your 5.1 will actually sound the same on other peoples systems  is a different ball game

My research into the costs of adding basic plugins to a 5.1 capable Protools suite with an existing 5.1 speaker setup shows it will cost me 2.5x the current price of MC soft. And that is without calibrating the room.

Ok it seems like you are too busy thinking about technicalities to see my point, so I'll spell it out.

Avid Media Composer sells for $2495.00

http://store.avid.com/us/index.cfm?page=templates/product_grp_index&categoryid=51

It includes: Boris Continuum Complete, Sorenson Squeeze 5, DVD itPro 6(SD)

Surround Sound Editing: NO

Final Cut Studio sells for $1299.00

http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/overview.html

It includes: Color, Motion 3, Compressor 3, Sound Track Pro 2, DVD Studio 4

Surround Sound Editing: YES

Avid Liquid 7 sells for $499.99

http://www.pinnaclesys.com/PublicSite/us/Products/Consumer%2BProducts/Advanced%2BVideo/Liquid%2BEdition/Avid%2BLiquid%2B7.htm

It includes: editing, audio, DVD authoring and effects in one application.

Surround Sound Editing: YES

Adobe CS3 Production Premium sells for $1699.00

http://www.adobe.com/products/creativesuite/production/

It includes: Premiere Pro CS3, After Effects CS3, Flash CS3, Illustrator CS3, Soundbooth CS3, Encore CS3

Surround Sound Editing: NO

but you can buy add

Adobe Audition CS3 sell for $349.00

http://www.adobe.com/products/audition/                            and then

Surround Sound Editing:=YES

So if you go the Pinnacle(who was purchase by Avid) path you spend $499 and you get surround sound editing. 

If you go the Final Cut path you spend $1299 and you get surround sound editing.

And if you go the Adobe path you spend $1699 and don't get surround sound, but you spend an extra $349 = $2048 and you get surround sound editing.

So my point is those who go the Media Composer (path which is pretty much the standard editor for most films and television) you spend $2495 and you don't get surround sound. And even if you add one of the cheapest versions of Pro Tools for a little over $250 but I'll round it to $250 you spend $2745 and you still don't get surround sound. And what makes this worse is that the cheapest path that I listed is by a company that Avid themselves own. So if my post is too simple for you hopefully you can see the point in the simplicity and the fact that your comment of how your research shows it will cost 2.5x the MC software price for a 5.1 capable Pro Tools falls directly in line with part of my point. Now there it is spelled out for everyone.

SDM

Sinubis:

So my point is those who go the Media Composer (path which is pretty much the standard editor for most films and television) you spend $2495 and you don't get surround sound.

SDM:  you answered your own question in the above comment.  if you go to such film and tv post facilities and watch their post process you will see that the picture editor doesn't do sound, they don't do FX.  quality movies do not demand a jack of all trades, but conversely a master of each. and it is inefficient use of time to have a picture editor bogged down with story and final sound.  while the director and editor are attempting picture lock, the sound designer can already be obtaining foley, creating FX, etc.

There are exceptions (like Revenge of the Sith), but even on low budget indie features that I've cut I've not done sound.  Sure...i had a lot of temp tracks of music and fx, but final sound design was handled by someone else.  And mixing by yet another person on many films.

In addition to Media Composer's matured and stable editing environment, you also have the option of Windows or MAC.  If Apple ever hiccups are someone doesn't like their new OS, or hardware or anything...you are screwed with Final Cut.  With Avid, just hop over.  That is a HUGE benefit over Final Cut, and one that Final Cut users will never realize.

And finally, Avid acknowledged this as part of their new direction presentation prior to NAB. So it sounds like they are on the warpath to get us there...so hang on.

Yeah I realize most all professional studios handle this separately, but I'm still the little guy right now. And to be honest it kind of bugs me to see these lesser packages offer something that Composer doesn't. I know Avid DS has surround and I doubt its ever used since they send audio over to Pro Tools department.

I'm hanging on man

SDM

So do what most of us do and put FCS along side your Avid and you have the tools you want. If that's not in the budget, then you have to make the decision that will move your company forward and that may not be Avid.

If you are trying to go the cheap...

Digidesign Protools M-Powered ($250), the Neyrinck Mix51 surround plug-in ($190), an M-Audio FireWire 410 ($400) audio interface, and the Blue Sky MediaDesk 5.1 ($1200) speaker system. Final price tag: >$2100

Personally I would replace the M-Audio FireWire 410 with the M-Audio Delta 1010 for an additional $350. Do check for PCI compatibility first though.

A multichannel audio interface and speakers are required in order to listen to the surround sound. Would be quite impossible to surround mix on a stereo sound card.

This is about as little as you can realistically spend on a surround sound mixing and editing suite from any company.

Charles

I absolutely agree that Avid should implement proper surround editing in MC - probably using audio tracks that can be mono/stereo/5.1 and audio containers like DS.

FCP doesn't do surround sound any more than MC - you can get 6 direct outs, but good luck building a mix within either. You can export to soundtrack pro, but then you have to have picture lock and won't easily be able to make changes.

Many elements for TV shows are made without recourse to dubbing suites and are finished in stereo. The same capability is needed for 5.1.