MovieMaker76:

Ok, I just got off the phone with Marianna.  She is incredibly polite and equally as helpful, and I can tell that she sincerely wants our needs to be met.

Bottom line - The 24f format for AVID IS going to happen - SOONER than we thought.

The beta version for the 24f format should be done very soon (2 weeks) - and testing will begin. 

Then the actual release with 24f  will hopefully be out by october or november - depending on the bugs in the beta version.

So, those who have been frustrated and patiently waiting - IT IS COMING.

Yours,

Todd

 

 Hey Todd:

                      This is really greaaaaaaaat news ! Bravo to Avid for responding to the Canon 24F or shall I say PsF format. (It's a long story) I hope this will also include the ability to not only capture from an HDV tape, but also 24F Canon file import from the Firestore FS-C DTE box, which does capture the 24F straight out of the XL H1 and other Canon cameras. The "C" in this Firestore designation was for Canon.

Great to talk with you and Bud Man........ 

Just beware folks that until Keith comes back from vacation and gets back into the swing of things, I wont actually know when beta will start.  I do know they are creating the processes for it and have engaged the beta players like BlkDog etc. but I wont know when it begins until later this week.  Also, keep in mind, beta is a process that doesnt happen overnight especially if any critical issues are found in the editors ( MC all the way up to NC).    Beta drives FCS so that date of release is not known either and may or may ot make it this year.  I just dont want you to expect something when it is up in the air depending on the beta testing.

Bud Man and Moviemaker are slated to test this cycle and I expect them to be contacted soon by Keth to explai the process and what is required.

We will fix this........

Marianna

Marianna:

Beta drives FCS so that date of release is not known either and may or may ot make it this year.

...Really, well that sucks Marianna ! Let us hope it doesn't take as long as you say, or I'll start bitching again loud and clear until it is !

Laptopeditor:

Marianna:

Beta drives FCS so that date of release is not known either and may or may ot make it this year.

 

...Really, well that sucks Marianna ! Let us hope it doesn't take as long as you say, or I'll start bitching again loud and clear until it is !

I understand being frustrated, and I do think we need to express what we need and want. But, I do think there is such thing as crossing a line and being disrespectful. 

MovieMaker76:

there is such thing as crossing a line and being disrespectful.

Definitely!  Marianna is spelling out what may happen, not what will happen so that no-one starts demanding software updates before they can be safely delivered.

Debugging is not a process that can easily be quantified.  It may not be fully stable this year, but it could also be fully stable within the month.  At this stage anyone who predicted that second scenario would be a fool.  Which Marianna definitely is not.

What Marianna has said is responsible.  Any software company who goes beta believes they have the issues nailed, but until this fix has been thoroughly tested Avid can't release it.  When it's survived everything they can think of to throw at it you'll get it.

jwrl:

MovieMaker76:

there is such thing as crossing a line and being disrespectful.

Definitely!  Marianna is spelling out what may happen, not what will happen so that no-one starts demanding software updates before they can be safely delivered.

Debugging is not a process that can easily be quantified.  It may not be fully stable this year, but it could also be fully stable within the month.  At this stage anyone who predicted that second scenario would be a fool.  Which Marianna definitely is not.

What Marianna has said is responsible.  Any software company who goes beta believes they have the issues nailed, but until this fix has been thoroughly tested Avid can't release it.  When it's survived everything they can think of to throw at it you'll get it.

JWRL........

Bingo.  That is exactly what I was doing.  I for one would rather set an expectation and beat it than not. 

Marianna

MovieMaker76:

I understand being frustrated, and I do think we need to express what we need and want. But, I do think there is such thing as crossing a line and being disrespectful. 

 ....Yes. I agree, but I don't think I've crossed that line yet, but we're losing patience over here ! Make us wait another six to ten months and watch how frustrated I get !

Marianna:

jwrl:

MovieMaker76:

there is such thing as crossing a line and being disrespectful.

Definitely!  Marianna is spelling out what may happen, not what will happen so that no-one starts demanding software updates before they can be safely delivered.

Debugging is not a process that can easily be quantified.  It may not be fully stable this year, but it could also be fully stable within the month.  At this stage anyone who predicted that second scenario would be a fool.  Which Marianna definitely is not.

What Marianna has said is responsible.  Any software company who goes beta believes they have the issues nailed, but until this fix has been thoroughly tested Avid can't release it.  When it's survived everything they can think of to throw at it you'll get it.

 

JWRL........

Bingo.  That is exactly what I was doing.  I for one would rather set an expectation and beat it than not. 

Marianna

 ...Lets get something straight here. I want to be crystal clear on this - I take no issue with Marianna, and I don't appreciate the obvuscation here ! The issue is a desperately needed feature to service what is the bane of our clientel and our production company's workflow- mainly HDV 1440 x 1080 @ 24 F , which neither we can shoot in, nor our clients can submit to us for post without a great deal of hassel because we can't capture or import natively to post in Avid. When you produce an Internet Tv series, being able to creat the film look does come in handly if you want to produce to stream WMV @ 720p or 1080p or 480p presets on a web page. 24p is less data rate down the pipe than 60i for sure friends.

Laptopeditor:

Lets get something straight here. I want to be crystal clear on this - I take no issue with Marianna, and I don't appreciate the obvuscation here !

There isn't any "obvuscation" that I can see.  My posting was to spell out why Marianna said what she said, and why it was the only responsible thing that she could say.  The fact that my comment (based on my own software development experience) was right on the money was subsequently borne out by Marianna.  If you perceive that as obfuscation I'm sorry, but I don't think the facts bear that assertion out.

Laptopeditor:

When you produce an Internet Tv series, being able to creat the film look does come in handly if you want to produce to stream WMV @ 720p or 1080p or 480p presets on a web page. 24p is less data rate down the pipe than 60i for sure friends.

We all appreciate your frustration.  It's a moot point, though, whether you should be angry at Avid for a slow response, or angry at Canon for introducing yet another, arguably pointless, variation on a standard.

And yes, Canon's variant has been out there a while, but let's face it, there are very few real standards for HD, and until the inevitable shake-outs occur, there won't be for a while.  As a result it's difficult for any manufacturer to decide what formats to spend development money on.

For you, Avid made the wrong choice.  For me, they didn't.  Bottom line?  If Avid doesn't support the format you want get an editor that does.

jwrl:

We all appreciate your frustration.  It's a moot point, though, whether you should be angry at Avid for a slow response, or angry at Canon for introducing yet another, arguably pointless, variation on a standard.

 ...I more pissed off at the the situation then at Avid JWRL. I certainly am not pissed at Marianna. I wanted to be clear about this. We don't shoot the messenger around here, but we don't necessarily have to always agree with what they have to say either. We actually appreciate the fact that someone at Avid is addressing the situation (Hurray for Marianna). I wrote earlier in this thread that most of us in production and post never thought HDV would become as prevalent as it has-Now it's a broadcasted format galore in the Dominion of Canada, as it has become in other countries. Put a digital disc recorder attached to the HD-SDI uncompressed output of the XL H1 HDV camcorder, take off the stock Canon lens (Which is good) and put on a Panavision Genesis lens, and now you have a $100,000.00 US Cine-Alta Camera ! Many folks are doing just that. Why not ? The Cine-Alta camera takes 1440 x 1920 Anamorphic pixels and spits them out in a 1920 x 1080 raster, which is a perfectly good way to do it. This is how they shot the last Star Wars movies. We are waiting to get our hands on the upcoming Flash XDR for the future uncompressed recording part, and everyone in the digi-underground community is waiting for an editor which will support capture natively of the 24 F . The first editor to get there wins.

jwrl:

And yes, Canon's variant has been out there a while, but let's face it, there are very few real standards for HD, and until the inevitable shake-outs occur, there won't be for a while.  As a result it's difficult for any manufacturer to decide what formats to spend development money on.

 ...Agreed.

jwrl:

The fact that my comment (based on my own software development experience) was right on the money was subsequently borne out by Marianna.  If you perceive that as obfuscation I'm sorry, but I don't think the facts bear that assertion out.

......No, I don't perceive that as obvuscation at all actually. It was someone else's accusation that irrtated me. I am also an experienced beta tester. I understand the process intimately. HDV 24F was introduced by Canon in late 2005 with the introduction of the XL H1. It is now late Summer of 2008 and HDV had now become another broadcast standard. (Like it or not) What is obvuscation here is the attempt to pit me against a corporate representative of the company, when in fact this is not the case and conveniently deflects from the real issue of no Canon 24F compatibility as of yet. I don't claim this was what you were trying to do.

...I don't like to get into personalities .

Laptopeditor,

If it is me that you felt accused by, I am sorry.  That was not my intention.  I just didn't want the thread to get nasty - and I certainly didn't want Marianna to be the one feeling the brunt of our frustration, that's all.

We are all in this together.

MovieMaker76:

Laptopeditor,

If it is me that you felt accused by, I am sorry.  That was not my intention.  I just didn't want the thread to get nasty - and I certainly didn't want Marianna to be the one feeling the brunt of our frustration, that's all.

We are all in this together.

 

 ...No Problem MovieMaker All is well. Marianna is following up on the 24F feature request and Avid is working on it and it will be heading into beta sometime this Fall I understand. . When this feature becomes successfully activated, then this will actually be a big deal for all who must deal, or want to deal with the 24F HDV format. For those of us who also work in production, we will have a way of tricking out our XL H1 cameras and extracting every last bit of visual quality possible, while also being able to circumvent all of the inherent limitations of the consumer HDV format.

My fingers are hurting from tapping on my desk in anticipation...PLEASE PLEASE get this fixed soon!!!!

You might wanna tape up those fingers for a while....

I think the real point is that Avid significantly hurt its sales by supporting formats so late in the game. This happened with the JVC, it's happening now with 24F and it seems like it will be happening with Red.

There is almost always a workaround. But doesn't Avid realize that it does a lot more good to support a format sooner rather than later?

Eventual 24F support is great, but XL-H1 buyers may be moving over to Red's Scarlet. The time to get behind 24F was a year and a half ago.

24F may have looked absurd from a standards point of view, but the cameras got amazing reviews and sold quite well from day one. It should have become clear on day two that Avid needed work with this format.

That said, I'm glad Avid will be supporting it. I just hope it doesn't continue to follow the same philosophy concerning new formats.