Apparently, it IS a ripoff for a lot of people, which is why Avid is continuing to wane in popularity.

.- Yeah, for the people who wants a luxury supercar for $ 3,500.00

There is not such thing.

I dont know what more to say.  Agree to disagree I guess.

The biggest problem I see in their software is the same as their hardware.  You, for example, need hardware just for monitoring.  They don't have that solution.  Avid doesn't see further into the future other than a couple months down the road apparently.  They don't see how things are changing.  They don't anticipate that things are moving towards tapeless and people don't need a $10,000 box.  They want something that will monitor.

The same goes for their software.  They don't see how the editors role is changing.  Change that, they haven't seen how the the editors role has changed.  They seem to ignore the fact that editors are no longer just editors.  If I had a choice in which software I used, I would pick Avid every time for jobs involving JUST editing.  I think it's the best editor out of the ones I've used.  However, my job virtually is NEVER JUST editing.  The majority of editors do their own graphics (or at least the non-super-complex ones that don't need a specialized graphics person), and the crap way Avid handles effects and it's crap title tool hasn't kept up with that.  More and more editors do their own audio.  They don't all have a Pro Tools studio to send every single job to.  They need better audio handling.  More and more editors are authoring DVDs.  They don't all get sent out to special companies to make DVDs.  Avid is still stuck in the mentality that EVERYTHING is online/offline, every part of a film or video has it's own separate department, etc.

And the sad thing is, none of this will likely ever change for Avid.  Why?  Forward compatibility.  Avid's greatest strength is also it's greatest weakness.  They'll never do more than add on to old things.  An entirely new way of dealing with effects won't be made, because then those new projects won't be able to open up on older Avid's.  A new way of handling audio is the same.  A new way of handling Titles is the same.  Avid is going to screw itself over every time in the way of progress because of this.

SandmanX82:

Honestly, I wish Premiere (which also beat Avid to the 35mb XDCam punch) would make leaps and bounds above everyone and that become the major player.

In terms of numbers sold, it is.  It outsells FCP, Avid, Vegas, you name it.

But I'm going to stop you right from the beginning.  ..........At least in FCP, like the majority of other apps, you already have a default scale, move, opacity, etc.  And if you need something more complex, throw in Motion.  God forbid I should ever want to rotate a picture in Pan and Scan....

.- many AVX 2 permits to add effects without affecting the others underneath.

The included BCC also does that, even with titles.

Anyway, I do not know any Avid  (or FCP) editor that uses them for intensive FX work.

Audio effects?  Hope you don't have a lot unless you want to keep mixing down over and over...

.- See above. I use Protools or Cubase for complex audio work.

Titles?  Marquee sucks.  You honestly are trying to throw Marquee into this conversation? 

.- Probably they don't know how to use it.

There's a reason 95% of the people don't use it. 

.- 95%?   where did you get that statistics?

I works flawlessly for me.

Live type is at least usable, whether it's a separate application or not.  And for the built in FCP titler, I've read your other posts before and I really have to question how much you actually know about FCP.  You always say you can't see the titles over your picture while you make them, which is wrong. 

.- No, is not wrong and you in person are about to explain why is not wrong.

You add the title to the timeline first, click on it, and then change it's parameters in the effects window while watching it update in the program monitor.  Simple as that. 

.- I don't have to do that on Avid nor in any other decent titler.

I do that within the titler.

What you just explained it's just another extra step.

Not to mention that you have to add shadows and other title related tasks using yet another effect.

That's another extra step to add.

FCP titler sucks donkey.

I don't see how Avid is any better.  I have a hard enough time trying to change the font size of one word in a sentence without it updating the whole text block. 

.- Never heard of such problem nor never happenned to me.

Are we talking about the same App?

Or if I use a title a bunch of times in a sequence, and I have to update something, I have to update each one individually because everytime you make a change, it creates a new title and doesn't effect the others.  Yea, it's really fun when I spend 15 minutes trying to animate a title with it's god awful keyframing abilities

(if you're really lucky, MAYBE the effect you're using will have "advanced" keyframes). 

.- Are we talking about the same App?

All AVX2 effects have advanced keyframes. Every modern Avid FX has the AVX2 architecture.

So I just spent a lot of time animating my title the way I want it....what's that?  The client just asked for a glow on it?  Well there goes all your time spent on animation.  Now you have to add an effect to it and redo the animation using the effects transform paramters.  Okay, fine.  Another 15 minutes.  Finally, done  What's that?  You need a change in the wording of the type?  I guess I better start a new title all over again because now that I've added the effect, I no longer have access to the type.  I want to matchframe my type?  Nope, sorry.  I want to try and delete all my unused renders from the media tool?  Hope I don't delete my titles since they're also considered precomputes.  It goes on and on...

.- I don't wanna sound rude, seriously, but are you sure you know how to use the Avid?

I always delete the titles pre-computes. All I have to do is select the sequence and click on "create unrendered title media"

And you can perfectly choose what are you gonna delete on the media tool.

If you accidentally deleted something you didn't want to delete, it's your fault, not Avid's.

And there is always the batch import and the Attic.

And what does it matter if Final Cut adds different apps instead of different features (which FCP does indeed do, contrary to your biased belief)?  It still would give me functionality that I need that Avid just simply doesn't provide.  Apps/features....whatever.  Your game of semantics doesn't change my point.

.- Different apps is not the same as different features.

Endless rendering? 

.- OH yeah!!  Try mixing different formats (Video or Audio) in the same timeline and you'll understand the concept of "endless rendering".

Over half the effects I put on my clips are blue dot effects.  At least in FCP when an effect is added, it will either just slow the frame rate or reduce the quality if it can't handle it real time,

.- Are we talking about the same App?

When a effect needs render in FCP (red) , all you get is a black-blue screen with the words "unrendered".

I use the latest FCP (6.0.3) just in case.

that way I can at least get a feel for how it will play out.  In Avid?  Black.  Won't even attempt to show anything.

.- That's not true.

And, with all due respect, now I can officially say you should take some Avid lessons.

In "effects mode" almost any effect (if not all), including third party effects, plays in realtime or in near real time.

When not in "Effects mode" , some third party effects shows black.

Many BCCs plays, the Tiffen DFX plays, Color finesse plays in realtime (I use elastic gasket 2, so I can use many AE effects within Avid)

AH! most bult in effects including The Spectramatte keyer and the Color correction plays in real time in REGULAR mode.

Bottom line.

If you don't like Avid, then buy FCP and be happy.

You, for example, need hardware just for monitoring.  They don't have that solution.

.-NOW WE'RE TALKING!!

They seem to ignore the fact that editors are no longer just editors.

.- In the lowest end (the struggling one man shop) that may be true.

But in anything above (including almost any TV stations I know and post houses, from small to humongous) the workflow remains the same:

Editing , Sound and Graphics are separate guys/entities.

Even 2D graphics are separated from 3D graphics and Motion graphics.

(In my opinion, 3D is a career apart)

And I like it a lot, I think  that's way it should be.

I use combustion, Photoshop, Protools and After effects for relatively simple things, but when I need something complex, I hire specialized guys.

And I simply put it on the Client's tab.

 I dunno, we have Motion on our FCP and it blows the doors of MCA's "Titler" and Marquee is just too hard to learn and renders take too long. I dunno if we paid extra for Motion, but it wasn't much money, esp. compared to Marquee.

Fazz Powell:

 I dunno, we have Motion on our FCP and it blows the doors of MCA's "Titler" and Marquee is just too hard to learn and renders take too long. I dunno if we paid extra for Motion, but it wasn't much money, esp. compared to Marquee.

.- You are kidding, aren't you?

And Marquee is very easy.

There is a very nice tutorial in the Avid site.

 many AVX 2 permits to add effects without affecting the others underneath.

The included BCC also does that, even with titles.

Anyway, I do not know any Avid  (or FCP) editor that uses them for intensive FX work.

And many effects DO affect paramters.  So what's your point.  Why should some and not others?  Again, not very good when you have to memorize which effects do this just so you don't look dumb in front of a client.  I'm not talking intensive FX work either.  Even moderate effects and the purpose of why those effects were made are not enjoyable to use because of the way Avid was designed...which was designed to work like it was in film...which is grossly outdated.  The whole "these effects effect everything downstream" is just dumb.

- I use Protools or Cubase for complex audio work.

You mean a separate app?  Like what FCP comes with?

- [Marquee] works flawlessly for me.

Good for you.  Doesn't mean it's a good app.  Try finding ANYTHING on the internet for Marquee.  Doing a google search comes up with almost nothing.  No tutorials, no vidoes, nobody talking about it except for how they hate it, no books for it, maybe 1 DVD on the subject.  Yea, real popular!  And before you tell me once again to "take a class", I'm well aware of how to use it.  Doesn't mean it doesn't suck.

- I don't have to do that on Avid nor in any other decent titler.

I do that within the titler.

What you just explained it's just another extra step.

An extra step?  You mean putting it into the timeline, which you have to do anyway?  Sorry, no extra step.  You make the mistake of editing the title and then placing it in the timeline.  What you want to do is put the title in the timeline and then edit it.  Where's the extra step?  Need a class on counting steps do we?

- I don't wanna sound rude, seriously, but are you sure you know how to use the Avid? I always delete the titles pre-computes. All I have to do is select the sequence and click on "create unrendered title media"

No...I've only been using it for 6 years, but I'm pretty sure I know nothing on it.  Yes I knew that you can create unrendered title media...but isn't that one of those extra steps (except for real this time) that you just seem to hate?  By the way, good job in ignoring the majority of my post on the subject of animating titles and putting effects on titles and matching back titles and everything else...

- And you can perfectly choose what are you gonna delete on the media tool.

I you accidentally deleted something you didn't want to delete, it's your fault, not Avid's.

And there is always the batch import and the Attic.

So when I'm running out of space and I want to delete unused renders, and there's hundreds upon hundreds of them, I should sift through them by hand to make sure none of the titles get deleted as well?  Yea, I guess that's my fault for not wanting to do that...

- OH yeah!!  Try mixing different formats (Video or Audio) in the same timeline and you'll understand the concept of "endless rendering".

I guess instead I just have to wait for Avid to transcode everything on import.  I'm importing 100 clips, there's a progress bar for each one, but yet I'm screwed if I have to know how many left there are to import.  I could be on the 2nd, I could be on the 99th.  No way to know...

-In "effects mode" almost any effect (if not all), including third party effects, plays in realtime or in near real time.

When not in "Effects mode" , some third party effects shows black.

I don't know what you're definition of "some" is then.  I have a large amount that do not play in real time.  Yes, once AGAIN, I know you can watch them in effects mode.  Not really all that helpful when trying to watch it in the context of the rest of the scene.

- And, with all due respect, now I can officially say you should take some Avid lessons.

You've told me absolutely NOTHING I did not already know.  With all due respect, you're a tool.  You can come on here and act like your better than everyone else, but to me you seem like a sad individual that acts all high and mighty.  For all you know, I could know more about Avid than you will ever know.  But just go ahead and keep telling people they need to take classes on pieces of software that they've been making a living with for years because they don't agree with you or because you want to assume I'm saying something different...like with the case of the titles.  I know you can recreate title media...that doesn't mean they still don't get deleted with the rest of the renders.  But just go ahead and assume I didn't know that because I was talking about something DIFFERENT.  Tool.

raspago:

You, for example, need hardware just for monitoring.  They don't have that solution.

.-NOW WE'RE TALKING!!

They seem to ignore the fact that editors are no longer just editors.

.- In the lowest end (the struggling one man shop) that may be true.

But in anything above (including almost any TV stations I know and post houses, from small to humongous) the workflow remains the same:

Editing , Sound and Graphics are separate guys/entities.

Even 2D graphics are separated from 3D graphics and Motion graphics.

(In my opinion, 3D is a career apart)

And I like it a lot, I think  that's way it should be.

I use combustion, Photoshop, Protools and After effects for relatively simple things, but when I need something complex, I hire specialized guys.

And I simply put it on the Client's tab.

Um, I work in more than a one man shop.  We have 3 Avid Adrenalines, a Symphony, 2 DSs, a separate graphics department, and a ProTools shop right next door.  However, NOT EVERY SINGLE JOB goes through all that.  What don't you understand?  Every job is not created equal.  Clients don't want to pay for the separate graphics department or audio department when there are simple things I should be able to do.  Final Cut Pro guy downt the street can do it...so why do we have to charge them hundreds of dollars extra an hour in order to do some of these simple tasks?

 Okay... ya know what, can a mod. close this thread or something?; because this is just getting ridiculous.

AndrewAction:

Strange argument!. you buy AVBV system at probably $100k and it makes you a good living for years. Then Meridian at probably $60+ makes you a good living for years, AdrenalineHD at $35K makes you a decent living for 3 years and you could probably use it for at least another 3 years at minimal cost. Nitris DX is offered at $13K with significant improvements (if you believe the publicity) and you are considering changing apps.

Hey Andrew,

Not a strange argument at all from my point of view. I have been using these products for some time now and will continue to use the Avid products I have. My Adrenaline is still a great system and, as you said, will surely be making me money for at least a few more years. My point is that through all those systems the basic editing and effects interface, as well as integration with other apps, has remained the same. My work flow with After Effects on my Adrenaline is exactly the same as it was when I was on a ver. 7.2 AVBV system.  In the early days that work flow was the the best way to do things, but those days have changed. While other manufacturers have been coming up with new and integrated suites of applications Avid has been coming up with innovation in the world of networked shared storage. Great for a large post house but usless for a one man shop like me. I would also argue that it's bad news or Avid as our industry is moving more in the direction of small, if not one man, shops every year.

Now Avid has new thinking and I would agree is moving in the right direction. But I have yet to see any inroads in the features that I would like to see added. In my perfect world I would love to have a system that trims like an Avid, manages media like an Avid but handles effects and interfaces with After Effects, Audition and Encore like Premier. I doubt that will ever happen but if it does, that's the system I would pay a premium for.

At this point it's all pretty much a moot point for me for a couple more years. I have at least that much life left in my current system and hope by then Avid will have caught up on these features. If they haven't I will most likely move to another solution.

Lastly I will leave you with this thought. I can remember in the glory days of Avid going to all the camera shoot outs and 3rd party application and pulgin unveiling's and the first things those manufacturers would tout was how their software or gadget was supported in Avid. Nowadays I go to these same events and hear how all these things are supported by FCP. The Avid name is barley if ever mentioned. To be quite honest that torques me off. I love my Avid and want those days back. I want Avid to take this industry by the reigns and once again lead it with the most innovative work flows and most powerful editing solutions. However over the last 4 years or so I feel like Avid is a 1913 whip manufacturer that is trying to combat the coming of the horseless carriage with a longer buggy whip.

You've told me absolutely NOTHING I did not already know.  With all due respect, you're a tool.  You can come on here and act like your better than everyone else, but to me you seem like a sad individual that acts all high and mighty.

.- Just because I'm pointing your wrong points doesn't mean I feel superior.

And I couldn't care lees about your opinion about me.

I know you can recreate title media...that doesn't mean they still don't get deleted with the rest of the renders.  But just go ahead and assume I didn't know that because I was talking about something DIFFERENT.

.- Different??

You said that was an terrible issue.

Well , is not,

And, as I said, if you delete it it's your fault, not Avid's,

Avid does not decide what's to delete.

People does.

Tool

.- Offenses are the argument of the people with no arguments.

Um, I work in more than a one man shop.  We have 3 Avid Adrenalines, a Symphony, 2 DSs, a separate graphics department, and a ProTools shop right next door.  However, NOT EVERY SINGLE JOB goes through all that.  What don't you understand?  Every job is not created equal.  Clients don't want to pay for the separate graphics department or audio department when there are simple things I should be able to do. 

.- What's new?

I quote myself:

"I use combustion, protools, etc for simple things"

Final Cut Pro guy downt the street can do it...so why do we have to charge them hundreds of dollars extra an hour in order to do some of these simple tasks?

.- I also can do it, and I don't own FCP.

- Just because I'm pointing your wrong points doesn't mean I feel superior.

And I couldn't care lees about your opinion about me.

Like I said, I've yet to see a "wrong point" that you've pointed out.  I already knew everything you said that you think I didn't know.

- Different??

You said that was an terrible issue.

I didn't say it was a terrible issue.  I didn't say there was no way to remedy it.  But just like you thought that the title tool in FCP was an extra step (which it isn't), this actually is an extra step.

I've seen these discussions with raspago a few times, and i'd hate to be the director sitting next to him disagreeing over a certain cut. Really guys.... we're talking software here.... not the end of the world as we know it.... can't you both agree to disagree, and spend your time a little more useful?

HDRebel88:

 Okay... ya know what, can a mod. close this thread or something?; because this is just getting ridiculous.

No need.  I'm done.  This guy was just insulting.  I don't agree with his points, or I don't make it known right away the exact things I already know about the system, so he assumes things and apparently I know nothing and need a class.  I'm not gonna discuss points about Avid with him that I think need improving if his main response is I don't know enough and need to go back to school.  So I'm done with it.  Sorry for the interruption.  Carry on with normal conversation.