when people buy FCP or a matrox system that does more for a lot less....

Well, that's not true.

FCP can't do more than an Avid.

FCP can do the Job, but that's it. (Premiere, Vegas also can do the job).

You can even edit with a pair of sccissors and tape.

But they're gonna do it far less elegantly, with more issues and limitations and in much more time.

And they can't do any job, You wouldn't find, for example, FCP in a fast news enviroment, unless they are masochists or extremely cheap.

The problem here, as I've told many times, is not the price, is the inexistence of Avid's hardware offerings for the lower end customer, the customer that doesn't need HD-SDI inputs because doesn't have nor need an HDCAM.

The lower end customer base is filled with a 3 years old product, the Mojo SDI and even worse, there isn't even a price drop!!

Please!

But the MC Interface?

No my friend, It has no substitute.

That's the strong point of Avid because (and I give you this) there is nothing groundbreaking in the MojoDX

Avid's "misstep" with the pricing of MojoDX is not really with the pricing... it's with the naming.

.- I pointed that some time ago and, Yes, is true.

But I think the mistake (yes, a mistake) of Avid was because they tried to appeal  to both Adrenaline users and Mojo users with just one product.

But, in my opinion, this strategy failed miserably.

As anybody can see in this forum, they didn't please the Mojo userbase side at ALL.

And for Adrenaline users, the Nitris DX looks more appealing.

What are they gonna do with the already unpopular Mojo DX?

Time will tell.

Yes, Kenton, perception has a lot to do with this misfire.

Even for the small guy with no money, the more expensive Nitris DX looks like a better buy.

How do I know that?

Have you guys read in this forum ANY complaint about the Nitris DX price?

Kenton.VanNatten:

The "Mojo" brand has a reputation of being the low-end/cost-effective solution, and that to me is the real issue here with regard to the cost/feature with the new MojoDX.

 

Right on the money, Kenton.  But as I posted elsewhere, I believe that Avid need a lateral thinking approach here.

If they were to make MojoDX available as a general purpose I/O box in the same way as AJA and Blackmagic hardware and at a lower price point they would sell more product.  The increased sales numbers would then do two things.  They would help fund R&D, and they would get Avid's products known to a wider market.

That should in turn lead to increased sales of NLEs in the same way that Canopus sell Edius in part on their name as A/D box manufacturers.

m2dpost:

Well as much as I am underwhelmed by Avids new pricing I don't think this argument really holds water. To say that a piece of hardware should cost X based on the cost of manufacture is to simple of an equation. You need to also figure in the cost of development as well as other costs of doing business ie. payroll, insurance, real estate payments or lasses etc... These are all costs that need to be spread across the profit margin of each unit sold.

Mike

M2 Digital Post Inc.

San Diego, CA

Well the truth of the matter is that for what it does do it's way to expensive so I don't care what it cost to make i.e. development or other costs that’s a bullshyt line that others may swallow...

This type of new thinking is really going to send them broke by sending the lower end or entry level editors elsewhere. The equation is simple I can't afford AVID so I'll buy FCP and that = the end of AVID when all new editors coming through can only afford FCP or other NLE's.

 

JVR:

Well the truth of the matter is that for what it does do it's way to expensive so I don't care what it cost to make i.e. development or other costs that’s a bullshyt line that others may swallow...

Avid is a professional system sold with the expectation that the user will be charging out their services and the equipment. So with the cost difference between MC with Mojo DX and FCP with some sort of IO box being 2 maybe three days HD charge out rate.  Or add another 3 or 4 days charge out and you have Nitris DX. 

Cost of ownership is spread over a units productive life expectancy. Current history shows the unit will have a 5 year shelf life before a newer model arrives on the scene AND you will probably get 5 years of support after that. 

This makes the whole price comparison argument ridiculous. 

Cannot afford it. Try putting the FCS cost price as a down payment and make monthly payments of less than $400 for 2 years.

Whats the cost of a spec'd CPU?  Or my favourite 2x  64GB P2 cards cost about the same as a  Mojo DX. 2 x 32GB P2 cards just cost us $3.5k US adds another level of realism to a Mojo DX at  $7K approx. 

The truth of that the matter is the NLE and IO box is now probably the smallest investment needed deliver HD to anything other than BluRay. (and if you are only going to Bluray out you dont NEED a Mojo at all)

Still Andrew the reality is that for less outlay you get more whether they may take longer or it's not as stable people still go the way of the bargain and it gets the job done. And as for the equipment having a shelf life of 5 years we'll have to wait and see seeing that items are being turned out quicker each time. This along with the cost is exactly why people chose the cheaper product God forbid you by something decent and it becomes redundant.

Money Talks...

 

Oh and forgot to ask what happens if you want to monitor your HD project even if you dump back to blu-ray what then folk out 10k? Please it's lost me and plenty others lets hope that they are still fishing when it comes to the final prices...Or that they will allow third party h/ware a foot in...!

 I agree that the name Mojo DX is missleading our expectations. It is like Toyota build a Avensis size Corolla and sell it at a price just below the old Avensis.

As opersite to lots of You, I think Mojo DX has its place in the market. I just think about a combination of one MC Nitris DX and several MC Mojo DX. This will be a cometitive solutions for lots of productions and post houses.

I agress with raspago, and I think the message start to be clear, the problem is the lack of some cheap hardware for montoring HD on professional/broadcast monitors for all productions which do not need to go to tape, or can be mastered by firewire.

 It wouldnt surprise me if avid allowed third party equipment to work with their software vs 3.0 to allow HD monitoring, to serve the new low end customers upgrading from xpro. Maybe the NAB for them is the same as for all of us, looking what best options there are for such contender before aligning them to their hardware. So lets see if the 'new thinking' will bring us more surprises in coming months.

rinzeschuurman:

 It wouldnt surprise me if avid allowed third party equipment to work with their software vs 3.0 to allow HD monitoring, to serve the new low end customers upgrading from xpro.

 

Do you mean that a "Blackmagic HD extrem" will be Avid compatible tomorrow, here I am sceptic, really !

 

raspago:

FCP can't do more than an Avid.

FCP can do the Job, but that's it. (Premiere, Vegas also can do the job).

And they can't do any job, You wouldn't find, for example, FCP in a fast news enviroment, unless they are masochists or extremely cheap.

But the MC Interface?

No my friend, It has no substitute.

That's the strong point of Avid because (and I give you this) there is nothing groundbreaking in the MojoDX

I think the main point that everyone is failing to mention is that FCS is gaining ground on AVID at a rapid rate and that the current product shuffle is doing nothing to address that. In fact the gap between the cost of an FCS system and an AVID system has just been widened significantly.

I agree with raspago that the MC interface is AVID's strength, there is no substitute and FCP can't do more than AVID but the differences between the 2 systems are small and will only get smaller.

To mention a news environment, well I'm not sure what your point is exactly. Sure FCP won't survive that environment but then what percentage of MC's are going to be used for news?

My concern for the long term is that this move by AVID again undeniably pushes more people towards FCS and I would hate to see AVID go by the wayside as a result.

The fact that for the cost of MC-Mojo DX alone you can put together a really nice MacPro with FCS and HD SDI I/O card is just unacceptable. You say the cost is not the problem and I see the point you are trying to make but because of systems like FCS and hardware like Decklink HD Extreme it indicates to the market what can be done and what it is realistic to pay for HD I/O and monitoring.

If I was AVID I would look through the forums, really speak to the users and note just how much disatisfaction there is with these developements. This is not a move in the right direction.

I work for a news department and all our systems are Grass valley Aurora don’t get me started what pieces of crap they crash every time and you have to restart them...It's such a bad system that we haven’t paid for it ($8 million) the agreement is that they have to iron out the glitches first or at least come close to that but it's been 2 years now and threes no end in site ...So my point to my earlier post is doesn’t matter how back the others are  people still buy them cause there cheaper and still get the job done much cheaper...

 http://www.broadcastbuyer.tv/publish/Grass_Valley_

 

Avid has iNews it's almost the same

JVR:

Well the truth of the matter is that for what it does do it's way to expensive so I don't care what it cost to make i.e. development or other costs that’s a bullshyt line that others may swallow...

 

 

JVR,

Don't get me wrong, I am in agreement with you that the current pricing is more than I think it should be. I was simply stating that your logic in coming to that conclusion was, in my opinion, a bit to simple.

So, with that said let me table my argument as to why I think it's over priced. For me it comes down to value for my dollar spent. One of those major values, that I am seeing no one address, is a tighter integration of supporting applications that I use in all of the editing I do. Most notably are motion graphics and audio sweetening. I look at the integration between FCP and Motion and even more so the integration between the Adobe suite of applications and I want that on my Avid!! The ability to move seamlessly between applications is a huge advantage to these apps.

Avid does have advantages over these other apps when it comes to media management and shared storage. These are viable advantages and I certainly think that Avid can leverage those even if that means charging a premium. However for me they are not advantages I need or am willing to pay a premium for.  

Now to put it in perspective I have been an Avid editor for over 10 years now. My Adrenaline HD system has been making me a decent living for the last 3 years and my AVBV and Meridien systems made me good money for the years before that. I really don't want to switch to a new app. However, I have resigned myself to the fact that if no major advancements in the area of application integration happen in the near future that is what I will be doing.

but the differences between the 2 systems are small and will only get smaller.

.- Nope.

First of all, FCP hasn't changed significantly since version 2.

And the differences are not "small" diffences.

For example:

The Avid has excellent media management.

FCP doesn't even have ANY media management.

There is a lot more BIG differences between those Apps but this is not the place and time.

Do  a search, there is plenty of threads about this matter.

 Hi there - Saw your comment about Avid having excellent media managment. I find it to be a bit daunting, but I'm used to much better managment in Discreet boxes. How does one get rid of all the orphan renders MCA creates? I have Media Mover and a 3rd party tool from someone in Poland, but I find the way MCA handles files on a drive level instead of a job folder level to be a bit on the unwieldy side. I took a FCP class at NAB on media management, and I hate to say it, it looks like they have some better tools, such as "find unused clips" a real handy feature in Discret boxes and now in FCP. Does MCA have this ability? I'd love to find all unused assets/renders and nuke 'em.

 like FCS and hardware like Decklink HD Extreme it indicates to the market what can be done and what it is realistic to pay for HD I/O and monitoring.

.- If that were true, Autodesk, Quantel and Lightworks wouldn't exist.

Avid is a cheapy bargain compared to Quantel or Lightworks.

And $ 10, 000.00 is nothing compared to an HDCAM editing Deck (About $ 100,000.00) and a HD monitor (A REAL Pro level is $ 40,000.00+)

FCS is cheaper because is an inferior product.